Proving Hamiltonian ≠ Energy for Rotating Ball

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the Hamiltonian and energy for a rotating ball on a circular path. Participants explore the definitions and calculations involved in deriving the Hamiltonian from the Lagrangian, questioning whether the Hamiltonian can be considered equivalent to the system's energy.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the system of a rotating ball and requests an explanation to prove that the Hamiltonian is different from energy.
  • Another participant provides a derivation starting from the Lagrangian, showing that the Hamiltonian can be expressed in terms of kinetic energy, suggesting that H equals the energy of the system.
  • A third participant questions the necessity of proving that the Hamiltonian differs from energy, indicating confusion about the original assertion.
  • Another participant queries the relevance of the angular velocity mentioned in the initial post, seeking clarification on its significance in the context of the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the Hamiltonian is equivalent to energy, with one participant asserting that they are the same while others question this conclusion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the original assertion about the Hamiltonian being different from energy.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about the definitions of Hamiltonian and energy, as well as the specific conditions of the system being analyzed. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the derivation presented.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying classical mechanics, particularly in the context of Hamiltonian and Lagrangian formulations, as well as those exploring the nuances of energy definitions in rotating systems.

M. next
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Consider a ball of mass m rotating around an axis Oz (vertical). This ball is on a circle whose center is the same O.
Given: Angular velocity of ring is d∅/dt = ω.
Mind explaining it so we can prove that Hamiltonian here is different from Energy?!
 
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The question is, is your assertion true? Let's start from the Lagrangian, using [itex]\phi[/itex] as the generalized coordinate. The motion on a circle is then described by

[tex]\vec{x}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> r \cos \phi \\ r \sin \phi<br /> \end{pmatrix}[/tex]

with [itex]r=\text{const}.[/itex] The Lagrangian is

[tex]L=T=\frac{m}{2} r^2 \dot{\phi}^2.[/tex]

The Hamiltonian is then defined as

[tex]H(q,p)=\dot{q} p-L[/tex]

with the canonical momentum

[tex]p=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{\phi}}=m r^2 \dot{\phi}.[/tex]

The Hamiltonian is thus

[tex]H(q,p)=\frac{p^2}{2 m r^2}.[/tex]

Written in terms of [itex]\dot{q}=\partial_p H=p/(m r^2)[/itex] one sees that [itex]H=T[/itex], and thus [itex]H[/itex] is the energy of the system.
 
Thank you for your reply, very organized, and this is so true! But why did he ask us to prove that H different from E?
 
And why did he mention "Angular velocity of ring is d∅/dt = ω"?
 

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