Question about noether's theorem argument

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Noether's theorem in the context of a Lagrangian formalism, specifically addressing the implications of transformations that leave the Lagrangian invariant. Participants explore the conditions under which these transformations yield conserved currents and the reasoning behind the dependence on the derivative of the transformation parameter.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assumption that the change in the Lagrangian must be proportional to the derivative of the transformation parameter, suggesting that other forms could also vanish when the parameter is constant.
  • Another participant proposes using a Taylor series expansion of the Lagrangian in terms of the transformation parameter, arguing that higher-order terms vanish due to the infinitesimal nature of the variations.
  • A further contribution discusses a generalized Taylor expansion, indicating that only terms involving derivatives of the transformation parameter should remain, but expresses dissatisfaction with the lack of intuitive clarity in this argument.
  • The original poster (OP) seeks confirmation on whether the Taylor series argument is valid and expresses frustration with the presentation of the theory in textbooks.
  • A later reply elaborates on the infinitesimal transformation and its induced change in the Lagrangian, introducing new definitions for conserved currents and equations of motion, while reiterating the connection to Noether's identity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the justification for the form of the change in the Lagrangian and the validity of the Taylor series approach. There is no consensus on the best method to argue for the proportionality to the derivative of the transformation parameter.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity in the assumptions made regarding the transformation parameter and the implications of the infinitesimal nature of variations. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and approaches to the application of Noether's theorem.

painfive
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Given a lagrangian L[\phi], where \phi is a generic label for all the fields of the system, a transformation \phi(x) \rightarrow \phi(x) + \epsilon \delta \phi(x) that leaves the lagrangian invariant corresponds to a conserved current by the following argument.

If we were to send \phi(x) \rightarrow \phi(x) + \epsilon(x) \delta \phi(x), this would not in general be a symmetry, but would be in the special case that \epsilon is constant. Therefore*, the change in the lagrangian must be proportional to the derivative of \epsilon(x), that is:

\delta L = j^\mu (x) \partial_\mu \epsilon(x)

Now when the equations of motion are satisfied, all infinitessimal variations, symmetries or not, leave the action unchanges, so in this case we must have:

0 = \delta S = \int d^4x j^\mu (x) \partial_\mu \epsilon(x)

or, integrating by parts:


0 = \int d^4x \epsilon(x) \partial_\mu j^\mu (x)

Since \epsilon(x) is arbitrary, this implies \partial_\mu j^\mu(x) = 0.

My problem is with the part marked by a *. Just because something vanishes when \epsilon is constant, why should we expect the thing to be proportional to the dderivative of \epsilon(x)? I could imagine other dependences. For example, the following things all vanish when \epsilon(x) is constant:

(j^\mu \partial_\mu \epsilon(x) )^2

\partial^2 \epsilon(x)

\epsilon(x+1) - \epsilon(x)

I could go on. Granted, you could eliminate these examples individually, eg, the variation should be linear and local in \epsilon(x), and by integrating by parts we can turn the middle one into the desired form. But there are other examples, and I'm wondering how we can argue for the form \partial_\mu \epsilon directly rather than eliminating these other possibilities one by one.
 
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Try expanding L as a Taylor series in (\epsilon \delta \phi). Then because \delta \phi is by definition infinitesimal, the higher-order terms vanish.

Now, because you are looking at the change in L under infinitesimal variations, the zeroth-order term also vanishes. What you should be left with is the first-order term.
 
So the taylor expansion would have to be a sum over all terms of the form:

\Pi_{i, m_i, n_i} ({\partial_i}^{m_i} \epsilon(x) )^{n_i}

where the product is over some subset of the values i, m_i, and n_i could take, and the sum would be over all such subsets. This is a pretty extreme generalization of taylors theorem. If it is true, then I guess we could argue we can ignore terms except those of the form:

{\partial_i}^{m_i} \epsilon (x)

and then integrate by parts. This might be what they mean, but if so, it isn't very satisfying or intuitive, and they really skipped over a lot of details.
 
I'm actually the OP, I illegally had two user names, painfive is now gone. But I'd still like someone to tell me if this taylor's theorem argument is the way to go.
 
painfive said:
My problem is with the part marked by a *. Just because something vanishes when \epsilon is constant, why should we expect the thing to be proportional to the dderivative of \epsilon(x)? I could imagine other dependences. For example, the following things all vanish when \epsilon(x) is constant:

(j^\mu \partial_\mu \epsilon(x) )^2

\partial^2 \epsilon(x)

\epsilon(x+1) - \epsilon(x)

I could go on. Granted, you could eliminate these examples individually, eg, the variation should be linear and local in \epsilon(x), and by integrating by parts we can turn the middle one into the desired form. But there are other examples, and I'm wondering how we can argue for the form \partial_\mu \epsilon directly rather than eliminating these other possibilities one by one.


I hate to see the beautiful theory made ugly by some textbooks! And I also hate the method that I will describe below!
Let us consider the infinitesimal transformation

\phi \rightarrow \phi + \delta \phi ,

\delta \phi = F( \phi ) \epsilon (x) , \ \ | \epsilon | \ll 1

Infinitesimal means that

\epsilon^{n} \approx 0, \ \forall n > 1

This transformation induces an infinitesimal change in the Lagrangian according to

\delta \mathcal{L} = \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi} F( \phi ) \epsilon + \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \partial_{a} \phi} \epsilon \partial_{a} F + \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \partial_{a} \phi} F \partial_{a} \epsilon

Now, we define the objects

J^{a} \equiv \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \partial_{a} \phi} \ F( \phi )

and

E( \phi ) = \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi} - \partial_{a} \left( \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \partial_{a} \phi } \right)

and rewrite the change in the Lagrangian as

\delta \mathcal{L} = \left( E( \phi ) F + \partial_{a} J^{a} \right) \epsilon + J^{a} \partial_{a} \epsilon

Notice that the first term represents the infinitesimal change in \mathcal{L} for constant \epsilon. So, we can write

\delta \mathcal{L} = \delta \mathcal{L}|_{\epsilon = \mbox{const.}} + J^{a} \partial_{a}\epsilon

Now, if for CONSTANT \epsilon, the transformation above is a symmetry, i.e., if the (Noether) identity

\delta \mathcal{L}|_{\epsilon = \mbox{conct.}} = E( \phi ) F( \phi ) + \partial_{a}J^{a} = 0

is satisfied, then the change in the lagrangian will be given by

\delta \mathcal{L} = J^{a}\partial_{a}\epsilon

where J^{a} now is the conserved current of the corresponding GLOBAL symmetry; notice that the Noether identity above implies \partial_{a}J^{a} = 0 ON-SHELL, i.e., when the field satisfies the equation of motion E( \phi ) = 0.

Regards

sam
 

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