Rund_Trautman Identity for fields

In summary, the conversation discusses a potential error in Neuenschwander's book on Noether's Theorem. The focus is on the Rund_Trautman identity for fields and its extension by Neuenschwander. The conversation also mentions the Lagrangian Density, the Hamiltonian density, and the canonical momentum, as well as the proof of the R-T identity and the functional invariance under infinitesimal transformations. The error in question is a missing term in the proof, which is necessary for the conservation law and is observed in examples and problems in the book. The conversation also mentions a potential mistake in the book's derivation of the conservation law for probability current in quantum mechanics.
  • #1
PeroK
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I think I have found a majot error in Neuenschwander's book on Noether's Theorem, but I'd like some confirmation from someone familiar with the book or with the Rund_Trautman identity for fields. As far as I can see the extension of the R-T identity for fields seems to be Neuenschwander's work, so there's no a lot about it on line.

We have a Lagrangian Density:
$$\mathcal{L}(x^{\mu}, \phi, \phi_{\mu})$$
The proof of the R-T identity is on page 105-106 and gives that the functional of ##\mathcal{L}## is invariant under the infinitesimal transformation:
$$x'^{\mu} = x^{\mu} + \epsilon \tau^{\mu}(x^{\rho}, \phi); \ \ \phi' = \phi + \epsilon \zeta(x^{\rho}, \phi)$$
Iff
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi}\zeta + p^{\rho}\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}} + \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial x^{\rho}} \tau^{\rho} - \mathcal{H}_{\rho}^{\ \nu} \frac{\partial \tau_{\rho}}{\partial x^{\nu}} = 0$$
Where ##\mathcal{H}## is the Hamiltonian density:
$$\mathcal{H}_{\rho}^{\ \nu} = \phi_{\rho}p^{\nu} - \mathcal{L}\delta_{\rho}^{\ \nu}$$
And ##p^{\nu}## is the canonical momentum ##\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi_{\nu}}##

I believe there is a term missing, which is:
$$p^{\rho}\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \phi_{\rho}$$
The critical step in the proof is (6.5.15), where he exapnds:
$$\frac{\partial \phi'}{\partial x^{\nu}} = \phi_{\nu} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\nu}}$$
But, I believe this should be:
$$\frac{\partial \phi'}{\partial x^{\nu}} = \phi_{\nu} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\nu}} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \phi_{\nu}$$
And this results in the extra term.

I got suspicious about this when looking at transformations of the field only, and not the coordinates. It seemed there ought to be term that reflected the function ##\zeta## in terms of the field ##\phi##. And, several examples and problems were not working out and, suspiciously perhaps, for the rest of the chapter the author jumps straight to the implied conservation law with the stated assumption that the functional was invariant.

I know this book has been recommended by several people on PF (@bhobba). I'm not just flicking through this, but I'm trying to work most of the examples and problems and, to be honest, this is the 2nd or 3rd major error, not to mention all the minor ones I think I've found.

Any confirmation of this would be welcome, although I'm fairly convinced that the book must be in error.
 
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  • #2
When applying integration by parts to the missing term does it disappear assuming the field etc is zero at infinity? When dealing with fields that assumption is made all the time - the form of the term being a derivative times another quantity makes me suspicious that's what's happening.

Textbooks at this sort of level often make mistakes and not give the details expecting you to figure it out. This is a very common one often not mentioned in derivations.

Perhaps looking at another proof will illuminate it:
https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/hal-01758290v2/document

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #3
bhobba said:
When applying integration by parts to the missing term does it disappear assuming the field etc is zero at infinity? When dealing with fields that assumption is made all the time - the form of the term being a derivative times another quantity makes me suspicious that's what's happening.

Textbooks at this sort of level often make mistakes and not give the details expecting you to figure it out. This is a very common one often not mentioned in derivations.

Perhaps looking at another proof will illuminate it:
https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/hal-01758290v2/document

Thanks
Bill

Thanks for the reply. The term doesn't disappear. I've just worked through the details of obtaining the conserved quantity and you need the extra term there. I understand mistakes, but this is the key theorem and formula for the whole of chapter 6!

Perhaps we should give the author the benefit of the doubt, but after that point in chapter 6, there was a noticeable lack of a worked example. He kept saying "if you show invariance". It was as if he, like me, wasn't getting the invariance to work out in his examples and - short of time - just cut to statement of the conservation law. The reason none of the examples work out is that there is a term missing from the RT identity.

Pero
 
  • #4
Did you have a look at the other derivation I posted? Does it have your term? If not I would carefully go through it and see how it disappears - if not then of course its a goof - goofs in otherwise good books are not exactly uncommon.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #5
bhobba said:
Did you have a look at the other derivation I posted? Does it have your term? If not I would carefully go through it and see how it disappears - if not then of course its a goof - goofs in otherwise good books are not exactly uncommon.

Thanks
Bill

Yes, but that's just the regular R-T identity for Lagrangians. The problem in Neuenschwander is his extension of the R-T identity for fields and Lagrangian densities.
 
  • #6
I had a look at 6.5.15 and it looks like the text is just taking ε outside the partial derivative δ(ε*τ(v))/δx'(u) = ε*δ(τ(v)/δx'(u).

Can you flesh out your issue in a bit mote detail?

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #7
bhobba said:
I had a look at 6.5.15 and it looks like the text is just taking ε outside the partial derivative δ(ε*τ(v))/δx'(u) = ε*δ(τ(v)/δx'(u).

Can you flesh out your issue in a bit mote detail?

Thanks
Bill

Sorry, I've got it sorted. The book is definitely wrong. Not in the eventual conservation formula, but in the intermediate R-T formula he gives for invariance. For example, if you take his formula 6.5.9 and a transformation of ##\phi## only - no coordinate transformation - and assume ##\mathcal{L}## does not depend on ##\phi##, then all the terms in 6.5.9 are zero. This implies that in these cases, all transformations of the field are invariant(!) . That doesn't seem right, so there must be a missing term in 6.5.9 relating to the change in the field: ##\zeta## with respect to ##\phi##.

Also, the example on page 112-114 for QM doesn't work out without the extra term. He doesn't work through his formula (6.5.9) - suitably extended for complex fields, of course! - but jumps straight to the consevation law for probability current. If you try to work through this using the complex extension to 6.5.9, then it doesn't work out.

Thanks for looking at this.
 
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  • #8
Another odd thing I noticed was that Neuenschwander allows the coordinates ##x^{\mu}## to be functions of the field ##\phi##.

##x'^{\mu} = x^{\mu} + \epsilon \tau^{\mu}(x^{\rho}, \phi)##

This looks very odd. If you think about the Lagrangian for the Schroedinger equation, that's making a transfromation of ##x, t## as functions of the wave-function! In any case, I've taken this out of my notes and assumed the coordinate transformations do not involve the field.
 
  • #9
@bhobba

I think I've found the root of the problem. The extra term was in there all along, just hiding. I misinterpreted what he meant by his partial derivatives. We have:

##\phi' = \phi + \epsilon \zeta(x^{\rho}, \phi)##

And the term in the R-T identity:

##\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}}##

Which I was interpreting as the partial derivative with ##\zeta## taken as a function of "two" variables. But, of course, if we express ##\zeta## as a function of ##\phi##, then this expression means:

##\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}} = \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x^{\rho}}##

So, even if ##\zeta## is explicitly only a function of ##\phi##, it's still a function of ##x^{\mu}##. That explains it!
 
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1. What is the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields?

The Rund_Trautman Identity for fields is a mathematical formula used in differential geometry to study the curvature of a space. It is named after two mathematicians, Herbert Rund and Andrzej Trautman, who independently discovered the identity in the 1950s.

2. How does the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields relate to the curvature of a space?

The Rund_Trautman Identity for fields provides a relationship between the curvature of a space and the derivatives of the metric tensor, which is a mathematical object used to measure distances and angles in a space. This identity is an important tool in understanding the geometry of a space.

3. What is the significance of the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields in physics?

In physics, the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields is used in the study of general relativity, which is a theory that describes the curvature of space and time due to the presence of matter and energy. This identity allows for the calculation of the curvature of spacetime in the presence of a gravitational field.

4. Is the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields applicable to all spaces?

No, the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields is only applicable to spaces that have a metric tensor. This includes spaces such as Euclidean spaces, Riemannian manifolds, and pseudo-Riemannian manifolds.

5. How is the Rund_Trautman Identity for fields used in practical applications?

The Rund_Trautman Identity for fields is used extensively in the field of differential geometry, which has many practical applications in physics, engineering, and computer science. It is also used in the study of geometric structures and their applications in various fields such as robotics, computer graphics, and image processing.

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