Rund_Trautman Identity for fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Rund-Trautman (R-T) identity for fields, specifically addressing potential errors in Neuenschwander's book on Noether's Theorem. Participants explore the implications of a missing term in the proof of the R-T identity and its effects on the conservation laws derived from it.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests a major error in Neuenschwander's book regarding the extension of the R-T identity for fields, proposing that a term involving the canonical momentum and the derivative of the field is missing.
  • Another participant questions whether the missing term disappears under integration by parts, assuming fields vanish at infinity, indicating a common assumption in field theory.
  • A participant expresses frustration that the lack of the extra term leads to inconsistencies in examples and problems presented in the book, suggesting that the author may have skipped necessary details.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of the transformation of coordinates being dependent on the field, questioning the validity of such transformations in the context of the Lagrangian.
  • A later reply indicates that the perceived missing term may have been misinterpreted, clarifying that the partial derivatives in the context of the R-T identity can be expressed in terms of the field, thus resolving the initial confusion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and significance of the missing term in the R-T identity. While some believe it is crucial for the integrity of the proof, others suggest that it may not be missing after all, leading to an unresolved debate on the correctness of Neuenschwander's formulation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion hinges on the interpretation of partial derivatives and the assumptions made regarding the dependence of the Lagrangian on the field and coordinates. The implications of these assumptions remain a point of contention.

PeroK
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I think I have found a majot error in Neuenschwander's book on Noether's Theorem, but I'd like some confirmation from someone familiar with the book or with the Rund_Trautman identity for fields. As far as I can see the extension of the R-T identity for fields seems to be Neuenschwander's work, so there's no a lot about it on line.

We have a Lagrangian Density:
$$\mathcal{L}(x^{\mu}, \phi, \phi_{\mu})$$
The proof of the R-T identity is on page 105-106 and gives that the functional of ##\mathcal{L}## is invariant under the infinitesimal transformation:
$$x'^{\mu} = x^{\mu} + \epsilon \tau^{\mu}(x^{\rho}, \phi); \ \ \phi' = \phi + \epsilon \zeta(x^{\rho}, \phi)$$
Iff
$$\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi}\zeta + p^{\rho}\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}} + \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial x^{\rho}} \tau^{\rho} - \mathcal{H}_{\rho}^{\ \nu} \frac{\partial \tau_{\rho}}{\partial x^{\nu}} = 0$$
Where ##\mathcal{H}## is the Hamiltonian density:
$$\mathcal{H}_{\rho}^{\ \nu} = \phi_{\rho}p^{\nu} - \mathcal{L}\delta_{\rho}^{\ \nu}$$
And ##p^{\nu}## is the canonical momentum ##\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \phi_{\nu}}##

I believe there is a term missing, which is:
$$p^{\rho}\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \phi_{\rho}$$
The critical step in the proof is (6.5.15), where he exapnds:
$$\frac{\partial \phi'}{\partial x^{\nu}} = \phi_{\nu} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\nu}}$$
But, I believe this should be:
$$\frac{\partial \phi'}{\partial x^{\nu}} = \phi_{\nu} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\nu}} + \epsilon \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \phi_{\nu}$$
And this results in the extra term.

I got suspicious about this when looking at transformations of the field only, and not the coordinates. It seemed there ought to be term that reflected the function ##\zeta## in terms of the field ##\phi##. And, several examples and problems were not working out and, suspiciously perhaps, for the rest of the chapter the author jumps straight to the implied conservation law with the stated assumption that the functional was invariant.

I know this book has been recommended by several people on PF (@bhobba). I'm not just flicking through this, but I'm trying to work most of the examples and problems and, to be honest, this is the 2nd or 3rd major error, not to mention all the minor ones I think I've found.

Any confirmation of this would be welcome, although I'm fairly convinced that the book must be in error.
 
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When applying integration by parts to the missing term does it disappear assuming the field etc is zero at infinity? When dealing with fields that assumption is made all the time - the form of the term being a derivative times another quantity makes me suspicious that's what's happening.

Textbooks at this sort of level often make mistakes and not give the details expecting you to figure it out. This is a very common one often not mentioned in derivations.

Perhaps looking at another proof will illuminate it:
https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/hal-01758290v2/document

Thanks
Bill
 
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bhobba said:
When applying integration by parts to the missing term does it disappear assuming the field etc is zero at infinity? When dealing with fields that assumption is made all the time - the form of the term being a derivative times another quantity makes me suspicious that's what's happening.

Textbooks at this sort of level often make mistakes and not give the details expecting you to figure it out. This is a very common one often not mentioned in derivations.

Perhaps looking at another proof will illuminate it:
https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/hal-01758290v2/document

Thanks
Bill

Thanks for the reply. The term doesn't disappear. I've just worked through the details of obtaining the conserved quantity and you need the extra term there. I understand mistakes, but this is the key theorem and formula for the whole of chapter 6!

Perhaps we should give the author the benefit of the doubt, but after that point in chapter 6, there was a noticeable lack of a worked example. He kept saying "if you show invariance". It was as if he, like me, wasn't getting the invariance to work out in his examples and - short of time - just cut to statement of the conservation law. The reason none of the examples work out is that there is a term missing from the RT identity.

Pero
 
Did you have a look at the other derivation I posted? Does it have your term? If not I would carefully go through it and see how it disappears - if not then of course its a goof - goofs in otherwise good books are not exactly uncommon.

Thanks
Bill
 
bhobba said:
Did you have a look at the other derivation I posted? Does it have your term? If not I would carefully go through it and see how it disappears - if not then of course its a goof - goofs in otherwise good books are not exactly uncommon.

Thanks
Bill

Yes, but that's just the regular R-T identity for Lagrangians. The problem in Neuenschwander is his extension of the R-T identity for fields and Lagrangian densities.
 
I had a look at 6.5.15 and it looks like the text is just taking ε outside the partial derivative δ(ε*τ(v))/δx'(u) = ε*δ(τ(v)/δx'(u).

Can you flesh out your issue in a bit mote detail?

Thanks
Bill
 
bhobba said:
I had a look at 6.5.15 and it looks like the text is just taking ε outside the partial derivative δ(ε*τ(v))/δx'(u) = ε*δ(τ(v)/δx'(u).

Can you flesh out your issue in a bit mote detail?

Thanks
Bill

Sorry, I've got it sorted. The book is definitely wrong. Not in the eventual conservation formula, but in the intermediate R-T formula he gives for invariance. For example, if you take his formula 6.5.9 and a transformation of ##\phi## only - no coordinate transformation - and assume ##\mathcal{L}## does not depend on ##\phi##, then all the terms in 6.5.9 are zero. This implies that in these cases, all transformations of the field are invariant(!) . That doesn't seem right, so there must be a missing term in 6.5.9 relating to the change in the field: ##\zeta## with respect to ##\phi##.

Also, the example on page 112-114 for QM doesn't work out without the extra term. He doesn't work through his formula (6.5.9) - suitably extended for complex fields, of course! - but jumps straight to the consevation law for probability current. If you try to work through this using the complex extension to 6.5.9, then it doesn't work out.

Thanks for looking at this.
 
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Another odd thing I noticed was that Neuenschwander allows the coordinates ##x^{\mu}## to be functions of the field ##\phi##.

##x'^{\mu} = x^{\mu} + \epsilon \tau^{\mu}(x^{\rho}, \phi)##

This looks very odd. If you think about the Lagrangian for the Schroedinger equation, that's making a transfromation of ##x, t## as functions of the wave-function! In any case, I've taken this out of my notes and assumed the coordinate transformations do not involve the field.
 
@bhobba

I think I've found the root of the problem. The extra term was in there all along, just hiding. I misinterpreted what he meant by his partial derivatives. We have:

##\phi' = \phi + \epsilon \zeta(x^{\rho}, \phi)##

And the term in the R-T identity:

##\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}}##

Which I was interpreting as the partial derivative with ##\zeta## taken as a function of "two" variables. But, of course, if we express ##\zeta## as a function of ##\phi##, then this expression means:

##\frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial x^{\rho}} = \frac{\partial \zeta}{\partial \phi} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x^{\rho}}##

So, even if ##\zeta## is explicitly only a function of ##\phi##, it's still a function of ##x^{\mu}##. That explains it!
 
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