Question about total derivative/chain rule

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the total derivative and chain rule in the context of statistical physics, specifically relating to adiabatic processes. Participants explore the mathematical relationships between entropy (S), a variable (λ), and time (t), questioning the physical implications of these relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents equations involving the total derivative of entropy with respect to time and λ, questioning the physical meaning of treating time as a function of λ.
  • Another participant suggests that if λ represents distance, it is plausible for time to be a function of distance, prompting further exploration of this idea.
  • A later reply considers the association of time with distance in the context of mechanical quantities, raising questions about the acceptability of this approach for macroscopic quantities.
  • Participants discuss the nature of quantities and whether certain physical interpretations could be deemed unacceptable, ultimately expressing uncertainty about any limitations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between time and distance, with some proposing that it is acceptable to treat time as a function of distance, while others seek clarification on the implications of this perspective. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the physical interpretation of these mathematical relationships.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of the variables involved and the physical context of the quantities being discussed. The implications of treating time as a function of distance are not fully explored.

mSSM
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The following actually comes from Landau's 3rd Edit. Statistical Physics Part 1, Paragraph on Adiabatic Processes, Page 39.

I have the following two equations, where [itex]\lambda=\lambda(t)[/itex]. I am not so sure about [itex]S[/itex] (which is somewhat my problem):
[tex]\frac{\mathrm{d}S}{\mathrm{d}t} = \left( \frac{\mathrm{d}\lambda}{\mathrm{d}t} \right)^2[/tex]

Which is supposed to mean:
[tex]\frac{\mathrm{d}S}{\mathrm{d}\lambda} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\lambda}{\mathrm{d}t}[/tex]

Now, I thought that what is essentially being done there is multiplying the first equation such that we get:
[tex]\frac{\mathrm{d}S}{\mathrm{d}t}\frac{\mathrm{d}t}{\mathrm{d}\lambda} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\lambda}{\mathrm{d}t}[/tex]

But if I now assume that:
[tex]\frac{\mathrm{d}S}{\mathrm{d}t}\frac{\mathrm{d}t}{\mathrm{d}\lambda} = \frac{\mathrm{d}S}{\mathrm{d}\lambda}[/tex]
doesn't that in turn mean that [itex]t[/itex] is a function of [itex]\lambda[/itex]? Mathematically this seams sounds (to me), but physically this does not make so much sense, if [itex]t[/itex] is the time.
 
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welcome to pf!

hi mSSM! welcome to pf! :smile:
mSSM said:
Mathematically this seams sounds (to me), but physically this does not make so much sense, if [itex]t[/itex] is the time.

suppose λ is distance

why shouldn't time be a function of distance? :wink:
 


sin
tiny-tim said:
hi mSSM! welcome to pf! :smile:suppose λ is distance

why shouldn't time be a function of distance? :wink:

Thanks! :) Okay, I guess you could turn it that way. So essentially you say that we simply associate every instant of time with a certain "distance"... Since in my case the distance (=external condition) is a mechanical quantity I guess this would be sound.

Would something like that still be acceptable for a macroscopic quantity?
 
mSSM said:
Would something like that still be acceptable for a macroscopic quantity?

i'm not sure i understand that sentence :confused:

a quantity is a quantity

why would length (or any other quantity) be unacceptable?
 
tiny-tim said:
i'm not sure i understand that sentence :confused:

a quantity is a quantity

why would length (or any other quantity) be unacceptable?

Yeah, you are right. I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work. :)
 

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