What are the insights into the Total Derivative formula?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Total Derivative formula for a function of multiple variables, specifically examining its structure, interpretation, and the conditions under which it is applied. Participants explore the relationship between total derivatives and partial derivatives, as well as the implications of variable dependencies in the context of multivariable calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the Total Derivative formula, noting its similarity to the multivariable chain rule and questioning the use of partial derivatives versus total derivatives.
  • Another participant argues that the first term in the Total Derivative formula is only applicable if the function has a specific form that includes an explicit dependency on the variable x.
  • Some participants clarify that the original function being considered is likely of the form f[u(x), v(x)], which influences the structure of the Total Derivative.
  • A participant introduces the idea that the presence of an explicit x dependency distinguishes the Total Derivative from a simple application of the multivariable chain rule.
  • One participant suggests interpreting the partial derivatives as components of a transformation operator, raising questions about the interpretation of dy/dx in this context.
  • Another participant provides a detailed explanation of the relationship between differentials and derivatives, emphasizing the linear mapping aspect of derivatives in the context of vectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the interpretation of the Total Derivative formula, with multiple competing views regarding the necessity of certain terms and the implications of variable dependencies. Participants express differing opinions on the correct formulation and understanding of the Total Derivative in relation to the multivariable chain rule.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion hinges on the specific forms of the functions being analyzed, which may introduce additional parameters or dependencies that affect the application of the Total Derivative. The nuances of manipulating differentials and derivatives are also highlighted as a point of contention.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in mathematics, physics, and engineering who are exploring the concepts of derivatives in multivariable calculus and the distinctions between total and partial derivatives.

quickAndLucky
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I’ve always been confused by the formula for the Total Derivative of a function. $$\frac{df(u,v)}{dx}= \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}+\frac{\partial f }{\partial u}\frac{\mathrm{d}u }{\mathrm{d} x}+\frac{\partial f}{\partial v}\frac{\mathrm{d}v }{\mathrm{d} x}$$
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

What I do understand:
  1. It’s kind of like a multivariable chain rule
  2. The partials terms tell us how the function changes with respect to a parameter and the full derivatives tell us how the parameters themselves change
  3. The result is a scalar function that represents how much the original function changes at every point

What I don't understand:
  1. If it is a multivariable chain rule then why is it written with partials and not as $$\frac{df(u,v)}{dx}= \frac{\mathrm{d}f }{\mathrm{d} u}\frac{\mathrm{d}u }{\mathrm{d} x}+\frac{\mathrm{d}f }{\mathrm{d} v}\frac{\mathrm{d}v }{\mathrm{d} x}$$
  2. It seems there is no necessary reason for terms to be summed instead of combined in some other functional form (multiplied for example)
  3. What are the conditions that allow us to multiply by the denominator and arrive at the total differential? $$df = \frac{\partial f}{\partial u}du+\frac{\partial f}{\partial v}dv$$Is it really ok to be so cavalier manipulating differentials and derivatives?
  4. Is there a connection between the total derivative and functional derivative that makes the expressions look so similar, or is it just a cosmetic similarity?
 
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I don't agree with your first line. It should read: ## \frac{df(u,v)}{dx}=\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{u}}\frac{du}{dx}+\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{v}}\frac{dv}{dx} ##. You only have the first term ## \frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{x}}##, along with the others, if ## f ## has the form ## f(x,u,v) ##.
 
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Charles Link said:
I don't agree with your first line: ## \frac{df(u,v)}{dx}=\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{u}}\frac{du}{dx}+\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{v}}\frac{dv}{dx} ##. You only have the first term if ## f ## has the form ## f(x,u,v) ##.
I think OP is considering ##f[u(x),v(x)]##.
 
kuruman said:
I think OP is considering ##f[u(x),v(x)]##.
Yes. I agree. ## u=u(x) ## and ## v=v(x) ##. But unless ## f=f(x,u,v) ## the first ## \frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{x}} ## (for constant ## u ## and ## v ##) does not belong there. ## \\ ## I have seen quite often ## f=f(x,y,z,t) ## for a function describing the density as a function of position and time. Meanwhile if the system is sampled at a location ## (x,y,z) ## that is time dependent, (so that ## x=x(t) ##, ## y=y(t) ## and ## z=z(t) ##), then ## \frac{df}{dt} ## will contain a term ## \frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{t}} ## in addition to terms of the form ## \frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{x}}\frac{dx}{dt} ##, etc.## \\ ## In the function of the OP, he doesn't have this extra parameter in the description of the function. All he has is ## f=f(u,v)=f(u(x),v(x)) ##.
 
Last edited:
Yes, you are right, I should have explicitly included a dependence of x in my function.
 
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It is the (possible) occurrence of the explicit x dependency in your original function that makes what you are doing a "Total Derivative" rather than just "a derivative utilizing the multivariable chain rule".

As an insight into the difference between the partial and general derivative notation you can think of "the derivative" of a function of many variables in terms of vectors. I like the Gâteaux definition which boils down to: "A derivative is a linear mapping between differentials":
dy = f'(x)dx = \lim_{h\to 0} \frac{f(x+h dx)-f(x)}{h}
This reads as the derivative is just a multiplier if x and y are scalars, but it becomes a linear operator when x and/or y are vectors. In this context:
f'(u,v) is the operator mapping the differential vector \langle du, dv\rangle to the differential scalar dy as:
dy = f'(u,v)\bullet \langle du,dv\rangle = \frac{\partial f(u,v)}{\partial u} du + \frac{\partial f(u,v)}{\partial v}dv

The beauty of the differential notation and context is that the chain rule is built in. So for the very original context:

dy = \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial u} du + \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial v} dv + \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial x} dx =
= \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial u} \frac{du}{dx} dx+ \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial v} \frac{dv}{dx}dx + \frac{\partial f(u,v,x)}{\partial x} dx
and thence dy/dx is as stated in the OP.
 
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So we can interpret the partials and differentials differently, thinking of differentials as little vectors and the partials as components of a transformation operator? If this is the right way to think about things, how should I interpret dy/dx? What is the division of 2 vectors?
 

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