Question on submanifolds of a semi-riemannian manifold

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which certain subsets of a semi-Riemannian 4-manifold can be covered by non-intersecting surfaces with specific flatness properties. Participants explore mathematical questions related to the geometry of these surfaces and their relation to general relativity (GR).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks about the conditions (e.g., orientability, torsion-free, metric conditions) required for a subset of a semi-Riemannian 4-manifold to be covered by non-intersecting 3-surfaces with Euclidean flat metrics or 2x1 Minkowski flat 3-manifolds.
  • A follow-up suggests that if strong metric conditions are needed for covering, the requirements might be weaker if only one embedded surface meeting the conditions is sought, or if a 2-surface containing specific points with certain spacelike or timelike relationships is considered.
  • Another participant proposes that the surfaces can be viewed as parts of coordinate systems, and discusses the implications of imposing coordinate conditions on the curvature tensor for 2-surfaces and 3-surfaces.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the motivation behind the exercise and questions its relevance to general relativity.
  • The original poster acknowledges the mathematical nature of the question but relates it to the limitations of flattening curved spacetime and the ability to partially flatten it through specific coordinate surfaces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the motivation and relevance of the exercise to general relativity. There is no consensus on the conditions required for achieving the desired surface properties, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of the proposed conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the ability to find flat surfaces may depend on the number of conditions imposed and the nature of the surfaces being considered. The discussion highlights the complexity of the relationships between geometry and the underlying manifold structure.

PAllen
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Arguably, this is pure mathematical question, but most discussions of semi-riemannian manifolds are in the context of physics, so I post here.

Can anyone state or point me to references discussing best known answers to the following:

Given an arbitrary Semi-Riemannian 4-manifold, and an arbitrary open 4-d subset of it, under what conditions on the subset (e.g. orientable, torsion free, not closed, metric condition ...?) is it possible to achieve the following (on the subset):

1) The subset can be covered with some family of non-intersecting 3-surfaces on which the induced metric is Euclidean flat.

2) The subset can be covered with some family of non-intersecting 2x1 Minkowski flat 3-manifolds.

----

This is sort of a converse question the following example that the geometry of embedded surfaces can be very different from the geometry of the space they are embedded in: Flat Euclidean 3-space can be covered, except for one point, with family of non-intersecting 2-spheres.
 
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A follow up is, if one needs fairly strong metric conditions on the subset to achieve what I posed above, would the conditions be much weaker if loosened the requirements as follows:

1) The ability to find one embedded 3-surface meeting one of the conditions, rather than a covering of them.

2) The ability to find a 2-surface meeting the relevant condition containing 3 arbitrary (chosen) points have (a) spacelike relationship or (b) two with spacelike relationship, one with timelike to one of the others.
 
Ok, I think I can answer these questions roughly, at least, by implicit function arguments.

The surfaces I seek above can be thought of as parts of coordinate systems, and the flatness conditions as coordinate conditions. One may impose 4 coordinate conditions in GR without loss of generality. The curvature tensor for a 2-surface has only one functionally independent component; for a 3-surface, 6 independent components.

Thus, it seems, one should generally (blah, blah degenerate cases) be able to find Euclidean flat or Minkowski flat (as appropriate) 2 surfaces containing any 3 chosen points. But you cannot generally find any flat 3-surfaces (you would need to impose 6 conditions, which is too many).

Thoughts?
 
PAllen said:
Thus, it seems, one should generally (blah, blah degenerate cases) be able to find Euclidean flat or Minkowski flat (as appropriate) 2 surfaces containing any 3 chosen points. But you cannot generally find any flat 3-surfaces (you would need to impose 6 conditions, which is too many).

Thoughts?

I fail to see the motivation of this exercise. How does it relate to GR?
 
TrickyDicky said:
I fail to see the motivation of this exercise. How does it relate to GR?

In the OP I noted it was really a mathematical question, but figured I would get faster answers here.

Its limited relevance to GR is roughly: we know you can't flatten curved space time by coordinate transform. To what degree can you partly flatten it? To what degree can you make particular coordinate surfaces flat? I think I have demonstrated that you can normally make 2-surfaces flat, but not 3-surfaces.
 

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