Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

B Questions about understanding circular motion & the forces involved

  1. May 31, 2016 #1
    Hey, I'm having some difficulty in understanding circular motion and it's forces. Here is the situation I'm on:
    Imagine you are on a smooth turn-table with smooth shoes and the table starts spinning. Because of inertia, and because the frictional force is not nearly enough to keep you going in a circle, you'll start moving in a more/less straight line towards the rim of the table. Now lets say the table had a fence along the rim, and you eventually bump into the fence and you're forced to move in a circular path.

    Is the perceived gravity the same as the centrifugal force in this case? Do you experience a centrifugal force in situation (a) where you didn't hit the fence yet and (b) at the fence?

    My understanding is that the centrifugal force is purely you're tendency to move tangentially. So since there is no or little resistance to that in situation (a), you don't experience anything. In (b) however, you will experience a force radially outward (??) - Why?

    It seems like centrifugal forces are similar to the backward force that you experience when you accelerate inside a car.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. May 31, 2016 #2

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    To apply Newton's laws, you have to examine the motion in a non-rotating frame of reference. If there was no force acting on the body, it would fly off in a straight line in the tangential direction (Newton's first law). So there has to be a force that keeps deflecting it toward the centre of rotation. The change in velocity is inward. So there is an inward force. It is not centrifugal (away from the centre). Rather it is centripetal (toward the centre).
    There is no force required to move in a straight line at constant speed. The tangential speed does not change. The direction changes - always changing to deflect the motion toward the centre of rotation.

    Centrifugal force is a force sensation that appears in a rotating frame of reference. It is not a Newtonian force. If you analyse the forces from an inertial, non-rotating, frame of reference, there is only an inward force.

    AM
     
  4. May 31, 2016 #3

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Yes, these are "inertial forces", which are introduced solely to make Newton's 2nd Law work in non-inertial (accelerated) frames, and account for the object's coordinate acceleration in these frames. Inertial forces don't obey Newton's 3rd Law, and you don't "experience" them as you experience interaction forces.

    Depends on what you mean by "experience". To calculate the acceleration by Newtons 2nd Law in the rotating frame you always include the inertial centrifugal force, and eventually the inertial Coriolis force.
     
  5. May 31, 2016 #4
    Okay, so these inertial forces do not really exist, but what accounts for the "extra weight" I feel while being accelerated?

    What I understand is: In the situation of in an accelerating car, if I put a scale between the seat and my back, a non-zero number would pop up. This is analogous to just standing on a scale right? You would have a "gravity" towards the seat. And this perceived gravity is just the normal force accelerating you. So in short, you'll always perceive gravity in the opposite direction of the net force on you?

    In the case of the turn-table, what I feel at the fence is the centripetal force pushing inward. What I perceive, is a apparent gravity/compression due to that force acting on my back (?)
     
  6. May 31, 2016 #5

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Yes, you "feel" weight opposite to your proper acceleration (what an accelerometer measures), due to "real" interaction forces. Inertial forces do not cause proper acceleration, so you don't "feel" them.
     
  7. May 31, 2016 #6

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    The centrifugal "force" phenomenon really exists (so long as the force providing the centripetal acceleration is not gravity)! It is just that it is not a Newtonian force. If you are being swung around on a rope tied to a pole, the rope is constantly accelerating you toward the centre and you feel that pull. However, your tangential motion keeps the distance between you and the centre of rotation from decreasing. So in your frame of reference (the non-inertial, rotating and, therefore, accelerating, frame) looking just at the rope and pole, you do not sense that your motion is changing. Yet you feel a force (a tension within your body that seems to be trying to send you outward). The reason you feel any force at all is because of the mechanical nature of the applied centripetal force. The rope may be tied to your belt, which in turn applies mechanical tensions to your waist which, through inter-cellular bonds of your body's bones and tissues, creates tensions between all the cells in your body. It is that tension within your body, caused by your inertia, that you perceive as centrifugal force.

    When you are accelerated forward in a car when you step on the gas you feel that something is pushing you rearward. But, when correctly analysed from an inertial frame of reference, there is only one force on you and it is the force from the seat pushing you forward. The rearward force that you exert on the seat is not caused by something pushing you into the seat. Rather it is your inertia resisting the forward push from the seat.

    Gravity is different than all other forces. There is no "inertial force effect" when the acceleration is provided by gravity. When an astronaut orbits the earth he/she feels no centrifugal (outward) effect - no sensation of centrifugal force. This is because the force acts directly on each atom rather then through tensions within your body. Similarly, your body will not push against a spring scale because the scale is accelerating at the same rate as you are. It is only if there is a perceptible difference between the gravitational forces from one end of your body to the other that you will feel any tension within your body.

    AM
     
  8. May 31, 2016 #7

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    The acceleration by gravity is locally indistinguishable from an "inertial force effect".

    You never feel the inertial centrifugal force, or any other inertial force.
     
  9. May 31, 2016 #8
    Thanks guys I think I got it now. What accounts for what you feel are the forces within your body. In an accelerating car the seat pushes your back; because your chest is not initially accelerating, there will be somewhat of a compression in your body.
    In this situation, there is actually tension instead of compression. If we replace the guy with a spring, the tension from the rope extends the top part, but the other part is left swinging around. And so a shoe would have an apparent force on it so when it flies off, it goes tangentially by virtue of inertia.

    So to sum up, the apparent force or inertial force is of direct result from the real (applied) force, and it is because of inertia that any of this happens. You don't actually feel inertia.
     
  10. May 31, 2016 #9

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Not really. Inertial forces are an artifact of the coordinate choice. In the inertial frame there is only the real force, but no inertial force.
     
  11. May 31, 2016 #10

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    I am not sure what you mean by these terms. What would you say that astronauts experience when whirling around in the centrifuge with their face feeling like it is being squished into their brains?

    My point is that there is a huge difference between being whirled around in a centrifuge and being whirled around the earth in orbit. There is a similar perceptible and a real physical difference between gravitational free-fall and an accelerating rocket or car.

    AM
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  12. May 31, 2016 #11

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    A dog tied to a 100lb cannon ball by a neck chain will experience the effect of inertia when he sees his first squirrel.

    AM
     
  13. May 31, 2016 #12
    Sure the inertial force only exists in a non-inertial frame; I meant that what you feel is due to the real force pushing on you.
    Do you mean in a way that it can't move? But you can't actually "feel" inertia right? In this case the dog feels a tension force acting opposite to it's motion- which is an effect of inertia (?)
     
  14. May 31, 2016 #13

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    The effects are felt regardless of which frame you are doing the analysis in. If you are experiencing it but analysing it (ie. by applying Newton's laws) in an inertial frame, you conclude that there is only the Newtonian force acting on you and what you feel is the effect of your own inertia. If you are experiencing it and analysing it your non-inertial frame (ie. you assume that you are not accelerating) you will conclude that there must be a force is being applied in the opposite direction (ie. opposite to which the actual Newtonian force is being applied).

    AM
     
  15. May 31, 2016 #14
    Right, in an inertial frame there must be only a Newtonian force acting on me, so what I feel is explained by inertia. In an non-inertial frame however, all I know is that I feel a force in the opposite direction- and that is explained by the inertial force. In both situations though, what I feel is the same sensation, and that can be explained by the compression/stretching the earlier posts. Is this right?
     
  16. May 31, 2016 #15

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Basically, that's right. In the case of you rotating about a central point, there is only the Newtonian centripetal force acting on you. The force that seems to be counteracting the centripetal force (when applying Newton's laws in your rotating frame treated as if it were an inertial frame), is sometimes referred to as an inertial force but that just confuses everyone. It is an inertial effect. No force is needed to keep you out there.

    AM
     
  17. Jun 1, 2016 #16

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Yes. Your coordinate acceleration (dv/dt) is frame dependent, and so are inertial forces. What you "feel" is frame independent, and so are the real forces.
     
  18. Jun 1, 2016 #17

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    They experience deformations due to the non-uniformly applied real centripetal force. This is a frame independent effect, while inertial forces are frame dependent.

    Yes, because here (in Newtonian terms) the centripetal force is applied approximately uniformly to a small body, so it doesn't cause much deformation.
     
  19. Jun 1, 2016 #18

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Perhaps it is a matter of terminology. I use the term "inertial force effect" or "inertial effect" to refer to the perceived force (perceived by application of Newton's laws in the non-inertial frame of reference). Inside a non-rotating free falling or orbiting space-craft, there would be no perceived forces. But inside that same space-craft being hurled around in a centrifuge, forces would be perceived (by application of Newton's laws in the space-craft frame). So, in that sense, I would say that gravity is distinguishable from an "inertia force effect" - in the sense that there is no local inertial force effect in the non-inertial frame if the only real forces are gravitational.

    AM
     
  20. Jun 1, 2016 #19

    A.T.

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Yes, as usual you prefer a non-standard one.

    Inertial forces have nothing to do with inside or outside. They depend on the chosen reference frame, which extends to infinity, and includes the inside and outside of the space-craft.
     
  21. Jun 1, 2016 #20

    Andrew Mason

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Ok. We are in agreement on that. But what is it that leads the observer in the reference frame of the free-falling or orbiting space craft to posit an outward force acting on the space-craft and its contents?

    AM
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?
Draft saved Draft deleted



Similar Discussions: Questions about understanding circular motion & the forces involved
Loading...