Random Thoughts Part 4 - Split Thread

[zoobyshoe]

Going through the training alone can at best show that the training is done poorly, and that it may have become over -commercialized.

But that would be indicative of the fact the whole training course was invented as a product, with the intention of earning money, as opposed to being a school of psychology intended to help people. NLP basically offers psychological superpowers to anyone who takes the course, and that is it's appeal. It's not science, but something in the same category as Tony Robbins and the other "motivational speakers." Each of those people has a 'grab-bag' of, probably sound, psychological tools to get people to try, but really the point is for Tony Robbins to earn a good living.

When you say that one member has training, have you looked up the background of all the authors?

I did a quick, (and apparently sloppy) wiki read on the main two. From previous reading, though, I know it's essentially Milton Erickson based. Meaning, they did not study neuroscience and also linguistics, and then perceive a pattern to be elaborated on. They studied Erickson, and then glued together some words (neuro + linguistics) to make his seat-of-the-pants flying seem like it was based in science.

But your original point was not that they were qualified to say how scientific Erickson was. Rather, you were casting Derren Brown as unqualified to debunk NLP. That is something like casting Houdini as unqualified to debunk the seance because he had no theological training, hence no proper grasp of the Spirit Realm. Derren Brown's qualifications are, that he, himself, is a professional demonstrator of "psychological superpowers." As a hypnotist/magician/manipulator-by-psychology, he knows all the tricks when he sees them. As did Houdini.

 

[WWGD]

But that would be indicative of the fact the whole training course was invented as a product, with the intention of earning money, as opposed to being a school of psychology intended to help people. NLP basically offers psychological superpowers to anyone who takes the course, and that is it's appeal. It's not science, but something in the same category as Tony Robbins and the other "motivational speakers." Each of those people has a 'grab-bag' of, probably sound, psychological tools to get people to try, but really the point is for Tony Robbins to earn a good living.I did a quick, (and apparently sloppy) wiki read on the main two. From previous reading, though, I know it's essentially Milton Erickson based. Meaning, they did not study neuroscience and also linguistics, and then perceive a pattern to be elaborated on. They studied Erickson, and then glued together some words (neuro + linguistics) to make his seat-of-the-pants flying seem like it was based in science.

But your original point was not that they were qualified to say how scientific Erickson was. Rather, you were casting Derren Brown as unqualified to debunk NLP. That is something like casting Houdini as unqualified to debunk the seance because he had no theological training, hence no proper grasp of the Spirit Realm. Derren Brown's qualifications are, that he, himself, is a professional demonstrator of "psychological superpowers." As a hypnotist/magician/manipulator-by-psychology, he knows all the tricks when he sees them. As did Houdini.

Derren Brown may have at best proven that the course he took was taught by a scammer. One person, one course taken. T Besides, there is a difference IMO between the theory, the implementation and the " implementers" . A poorly taught class in, e.g., French Cuisine does not show that French Cuisine is lousy. I don't know how you can so casually IMO conclude that the whole thing was put together in such a way to make it seem like it is based in science; I have read some of the texts put out by Bandler, Dilts, etc. , and they do make specific scientific claims (by which I mean scientifically-testable statements, whether valid or not), which are based on assessments of neurological bases for certain types of behaviors, and describing behavior by sequences of neurological reactions. This may not hold up scientifically, i.e. , may not be reproducible, but it is laid out in such a way as to be testable by science.
I suspect that some on the business side of operations decided to package the whole deal in an oversimplified way to the general public, describing the end product without explaining how/why it works, whether the real thing does or does not work. The business end often vulgarizes and frankly some times flat out cheats in order to increase sales. You cannot blame that on a faulty theory underlying NLP.

EDIT: NLP makes specific claims. I don't have the training to test the accuracy of the claims but I do think I have enough training to determine that the claims made are testable.

EDIT2 : I think we are at a stalemate and I suggest we leave it here, I don't see how we can really move forward.

 

[lisab]

I can lose myself looking at maps.

 

[WWGD]

I was asked to remove my ski mask while at B&N. This is a sub-ground level store, with mechanical stairs. Does anyone really think I am going to stick up a store with around 100 customers in the cafe, then go up two flights of mechanical stairs (with people in the stairs) to leave the store? On top of that, instead of regular security, they have an actual city cop patrolling (which is weird, since I don't know if he is acting in his capacity as a cop or as a security guard.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

EDIT2 : I think we are at a stalemate and I suggest we leave it here, I don't see how we can really move forward.

Let me have a last word: Derren Brown isn't the only NLP critic:
http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

 

[HomogenousCow]

Bank account application was rejected due to credit score. Thing is I haven't borrowed a cent in my life, never even had an account in my name. What the hell.

 

[Ibix]

It could be your bank being odd (there are, I think, occasional peculiar behaviours in their credit scoring systems). However, I'm sorry to say that just because you haven't borrowed money in your name doesn't mean that no-one has. You might want to check your credit record. At least in the UK it's pretty straightforward to do.

 

[HomogenousCow]

It could be your bank being odd (there are, I think, occasional peculiar behaviours in their credit scoring systems). However, I'm sorry to say that just because you haven't borrowed money in your name doesn't mean that no-one has. You might want to check your credit record. At least in the UK it's pretty straightforward to do.

Tried doing that, they asked for my credit card number which doesn't exist. Being a Chinese citizen, I don't see how it's possible for someone here to steal my identity and borrow money. (currently studying in the UK)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Bank account application was rejected due to credit score. Thing is I haven't borrowed a cent in my life, never even had an account in my name. What the hell.

Tried doing that, they asked for my credit card number which doesn't exist. Being a Chinese citizen, I don't see how it's possible for someone here to steal my identity and borrow money. (currently studying in the UK)

I think I see the problem. "Due to credit score," probably means, in your case, you have no credit score. You are a credit risk because you're a credit unknown.

 

[HomogenousCow]

I think I see the problem. "Due to credit score," probably means, in your case, you have no credit score. You are a credit risk because you're a credit unknown.

I'm so confused, can't they just deny any loans if I ask from them? I just need an account to receive money.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm so confused, can't they just deny any loans if I ask from them? I just need an account to receive money.

I think the problem is that a credit card account can be linked directly to a bank account such that items charged on the card are automatically paid for from the bank account. That is: the monthly credit card bill is automatically paid from the bank account. I believe that's actually what most people do. So, a person can exceed their credit limit without the bank being consulted. Therefore, they want people with a solid history of paying off their credit card bill.

The risk for them here is that, if they give you a bank account, you might then go out and get a credit card and link it to that account and then overextend your credit.

 

[Ibix]

I take it you've just moved countries, in which case I agree with Zooby's analysis.

The UK has a requirement that banks provide a "Basic Account" expressly for people lacking a credit history (or with a loooong one) who still need to get paid electronically. You can pay money in by all the usual means, but you can only get cash in the bank or an ATM. No credit/debit card, no overdraft, and no direct debits (I think). Don't know if the US has something similar.

 

[HomogenousCow]

I take it you've just moved countries, in which case I agree with Zooby's analysis.

The UK has a requirement that banks provide a "Basic Account" expressly for people lacking a credit history (or with a loooong one) who still need to get paid electronically. You can pay money in by all the usual means, but you can only get cash in the bank or an ATM. No credit/debit card, no overdraft, and no direct debits (I think). Don't know if the US has something similar.

I guess I'll get one of those, borrow small sums of money, sit on it and then give it back for credit score.

 

[WWGD]

I guess I'll get one of those, borrow small sums of money, sit on it and then give it back for credit score.

Or buy something that does not cost much on credit and pay it on time. They may give you a credit line if the amount is not too high.

 

[HomogenousCow]

Or buy something that does not cost much on credit and pay it on time. They may give you a credit line if the amount is not too high.

You know, how is it that one can't just keep borrowing small amounts of money for very short periods of time to steadily increase their credit score? I imagine you could probably get a small loan for a day or something.

EDIT: Just realized that's what a credit card allows you to do

 

[WWGD]

You know, how is it that one can't just keep borrowing small amounts of money for very short periods of time to steadily increase their credit score? I imagine you could probably get a small loan for a day or something.

EDIT: Just realized that's what does a credit card allows you to do

I wish I knew more about it to offer a solution, sorry, I have been fortunate to not have problems despite rarely borrowing or buying on credit. But, yes, maybe getting a credit card and paying it on time will also help.

 

[fresh_42]

Shouldn't someone start a thread where we can make fun of what is written elsewhere in the serious ones? I just read a new one titled: "What is pressure?" - I have at least three answers in mind which of all are not suitable to be posted ... And that happens often. @andrewkirk asked today for the conclusion "living in Sydney implies living in Australia". Hell, that has been difficult to form an answer around Nova Scotia.

 

[WWGD]

Shouldn't someone start a thread where we can make fun of what is written elsewhere in the serious ones? I just read a new one titled: "What is pressure?" - I have at least three answers in mind which of all are not suitable to be posted ... And that happens often. @andrewkirk asked today for the conclusion "living in Sydney implies living in Australia". Hell, that has been difficult to form an answer around Nova Scotia.

There was an apartment complex around here called the Sydney apartments. And, just in case, there is a Melbourne in Florida.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You know, how is it that one can't just keep borrowing small amounts of money for very short periods of time to steadily increase their credit score? I imagine you could probably get a small loan for a day or something.

EDIT: Just realized that's what a credit card allows you to do

For years I only used my credit card to pay for one bill a month, my internet dial up service, which was less than $30.00 US. The fact I always paid on time earned me some sort of spectacular credit rating. My credit limit was raised, and every other credit card wanted me to get one of theirs. It is not the amount, it's your dependability they care about. I guess unreliable people demonstrate they are unreliable with even small amounts.

Regardless, I would get one of those "basic accounts" Ibix referred to. That sounds much simpler.

 

[fresh_42]

There was an apartment complex ...

Did you realize you threw the next pass to be caught?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Shouldn't someone start a thread where we can make fun of what is written elsewhere in the serious ones?

There is, in fact, just such a thread. That is not it's express purpose, but it can easily be bent to that purpose. It used to be a healthy and thriving thread, but something strange happened at PF a while back and the people with no sense of humor somehow came to greatly exceed those with a sense of humor. The last great PF humorist, JimmySnyder, (JimmySnider?) departed PF one day a few years back, never to be seen again, leaving only the words, "PF is stupid." in his wake.

PF used to be an hysterically funny place. People often even made wise cracks in the serious forums now and then.

 

[HomogenousCow]

There is, in fact, just such a thread. That is not it's express purpose, but it can easily be bent to that purpose. It used to be a healthy and thriving thread, but something strange happened at PF a while back and the people with no sense of humor somehow came to greatly exceed those with a sense of humor. The last great PF humorist, JimmySnyder, (JimmySnider?) departed PF one day a few years back, never to be seen again, leaving only the words, "PF is stupid." in his wake.

PF used to be an hysterically funny place. People often even made wise cracks in the serious forums now and then.

This one time someone was trying to present a personal theory when he posted a link which lead to a 404 page, to which someone replied

"I too have stared at the 404 page and wondered about its significance"
I guess it was more funny at time.

 

[fresh_42]

I understand that it's hard to keep trolls out or to avoid drifting into pure comic. However, sometimes I got the impression that the slightest funny remark would have led to immediate deletion. It somehow comforts me that I'm not the only one who is delighted by a good joke from time to time.

 

[zoobyshoe]

We had a pretty heavy rain this afternoon. There were a few new rivers in the neighborhood for a while, and I understand other parts of the city got flooded. Another big storm expected tomorrow.

 

[fresh_42]

Another idea for a thread: "Things I haven't said." (I just deleted: I guess we still have to wait for another Ramanujan.)
If I remember right it was Bernard Shaw who has been asked to be a little more polite in answering a letter and he replied: "You should have read what I didn't write by politeness."

 

[Silicon Waffle]

I deleted my post because I find it is like a word salad and have incorrect conclusions about mental disorders.

 

[fresh_42]

I deleted my post because I find it is like a word salad and have incorrect conclusions about mental disorders.

I didn't mind the mental disorders. Guess it's kind of a professional disease. But the rest was interesting: I love Dadaism.

 

[Silicon Waffle]

I didn't mind the mental disorders. Guess it's kind of a professional disease. But the rest was interesting: I love Dadaism.

It's an inspiration for image processing in suspense and horror movies.

 

[WWGD]

I never really got into the show " How I met Your Mother" . Too bad, because it is on at least 5 times daily. It is the type of show I almost like but I never end up really getting into. I prefer " Two and a Half Men" , which seems to be on much less often.

 

[fresh_42]

Here they have both in a seemingly endless loop. I don't like neither. It's like "Sex and the city" for boys. Not even near own experiences.