Rate of change of angular acceleration?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the rate of change of angular acceleration, denoted as ψ, in the context of an object falling 90° about an axis of rotation in the x-y plane. Participants explore various equations and methods related to angular acceleration, integration, and the implications of using degrees versus radians.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant calculates ψ as approximately (0.1578 rad/s²)/θ, where θ is in degrees, and discusses the implications of this value on angular acceleration.
  • Another participant questions the integration method used, noting that α depends on θ and asks for clarification on the meaning of S.
  • There is a suggestion that the rate of change of angular acceleration might be related to energy conservation principles, with a proposed relationship involving ω and gsinθ.
  • Some participants assert that the rate of change of angular acceleration is constant at 0.157 rad/s² for each degree of rotation, while others challenge this interpretation.
  • Disagreement arises over whether the calculations represent ψ as α/ω or dα/dθ, with multiple interpretations being presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of ψ and its relationship to angular acceleration, with no consensus reached on the correct interpretation or calculation methods. Disagreements persist regarding the use of degrees versus radians and the implications for the rate of change of angular acceleration.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include unclear definitions of variables such as S and the dependence of α on θ, which complicate the integration process. The relationship between angular acceleration and the chosen units (degrees vs. radians) remains unresolved.

risecolt
Messages
37
Reaction score
0
I am calculating the time it takes for an object to fall 90° about an axis of rotation in the x-y plane. I have managed to calculate the rate of change of angular acceleration, which will be represented by the symbol ψ.
Unfortunately it is not rad/s^3, but (rad/s^2)/θ or [itex]\alpha[/itex]/θ.
The value of ψ ≈ (0,1578 rad/s^2)/θ.
θ represents 1 degree or ∏/180 in radians.

The following equation applies for finding the angular acceleration at any given point.

(1) M = I*[itex]\alpha[/itex] = mgrcosθ, where rcosθ is the arm from the center of rotation to the center of the mass.

I have tried to come up with an equation by integration, but I guess that won't be possible since ψ I've designed is not rad/s^3. Regardless, this is my progress:

[itex]\alpha[/itex] = [itex]\alpha[/itex]

ω = [itex]\alpha[/itex]t + ωo

S = 1/2 [itex]\alpha[/itex]t^2 + ωot + So
S is always S+So, so So can be excluded from the equation.
So I thought that if I (virtually) integrated this equation once more, I would be allowed to include the rate of change of angular acceleration.

S = 1/6ψt^3 + 1/2 [itex]\alpha[/itex]t^2 + ωot + So
[itex]\alpha[/itex] would be replaced by using equation (1) from above.
S = 1/6ψt^3 + 1/2 (mgrcosθ/I)t^2 + ωot + So
For this example I'll set the moment of inertia I = mr^2, giving me:
S = 1/6ψt^3 + 1/2 (gcosθ/r)t^2 + ωot + So

This tells me that the angular acceleration is independent from the mass of the object.
If this is correct, I need to use the cubic root and I'll have to cross my fingers and hope that I won't get any complex numbers.

Is this a correct way to implement the rate of change of angular acceleration?
Do you have any other suggestions?

Spoiler
ψ is not constantly ≈ (0,1578 rad/s^2)/θ. It is actually a sine wave.

http://cognitivenetwork.yolasite.com/resources/Diagram.png

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have discovered a new method that I might be able to use.
How about preservation of energy?
If mgh = mv^2 is true then
mgsinθ = mω^2, and there is that beautiful sine wave you see in the diagram.
I'm not sure if they are related, but there it is anyway.
gsinθ = ω^2
ω = sqrt(gsinθ)

Then I can set up the standard equation for ω
ω = [itex]\alpha[/itex]t + ωo
ω = [itex]\alpha[/itex]t
ω = [itex]\alpha[/itex]t
sqrt(gsinθ) = [itex]\alpha[/itex]t
t = sqrt(gsinθ)/[itex]\alpha[/itex]

Then I'm just missing one thing, and that is ψ... and I'm lost again.

WARNING:
ψ = [itex]\alpha[/itex]/θ = rad/s^2 / degree = rad/s^2 / (π/180) = 9.0467 rad/s^2/rad = 9.0467 rad/s^2.
This does not change the fact that it is the rate of change of angular acceleration.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
risecolt said:
Unfortunately it is not rad/s^3, but (rad/s^2)/θ or [itex]\alpha[/itex]/θ.
Then you might have calculated ##\frac{\alpha}{\omega}##.

What is S?
α depends on θ, how does your integration work?
 
mfb said:
Then you might have calculated ##\frac{\alpha}{\omega}##.

What is S?
α depends on θ, how does your integration work?

S is the distance or the arc length.
The rate of change of angular acceleration only depends on θ.
I integrated by starting with ψ instead of [itex]\alpha[/itex].
ψ = ψ
[itex]\alpha[/itex] = ψt + [itex]\alpha[/itex]
etc.
 
Where is the difference between S and θ, apart from constant factors?

ψ depends on S, so your approach does not work.
 
mfb said:
Then you might have calculated ##\frac{\alpha}{\omega}##.

What is S?
α depends on θ, how does your integration work?

I might not have calculated ##\frac{\alpha}{\omega}##.
The rate of change of angular acceleration IS 0.15789473684210526315789473684211 rad/s^2 for every degree it turns, not radians, but degrees.
 
Degrees are evil. And I think you are describing α/ω Or dα/dθ.
 
mfb said:
Degrees are evil. And I think you are describing α/ω Or dα/dθ.

NO! For every degree that it turns, the angular acceleration is changed by 0,157 rad/s^2.
So if the angular acceleration is 2 rad/s^2 at an angle of 46 degrees, then it is (2 + 0,157) at 47 degrees.
 
risecolt said:
NO! For every degree that it turns, the angular acceleration is changed by 0,157 rad/s^2.
I know, and it does not influence the possible interpretation of this value.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
20K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 138 ·
5
Replies
138
Views
9K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K