Reading Analysis on Manifolds by Munkres

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around proving that the set U(x0, ε) is an open set as defined in Munkres' "Analysis on Manifolds." Participants explore the definitions and properties of open sets within the context of topology, particularly in metric spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to begin the proof and seeks clarification on the definition of an open set.
  • Another participant emphasizes the necessity of knowing the topology of the set U is a subset of, stating that a subset is open only if it belongs to the topology.
  • Some participants discuss the definition of an open set, referencing epsilon neighborhoods and interior points, but express confusion about notation and terminology.
  • Several participants suggest that the proof involves showing that the open ball is a neighborhood of each of its points.
  • There is a discussion about the tautological nature of the problem, questioning why one would need to prove that an open ball is open when it is generally accepted as such in metric topology.
  • A participant proposes a proof structure involving the triangle inequality and the existence of a delta for points within the set.
  • One participant shares their proof attempt and seeks feedback, while another offers a hint to refine their approach.
  • Participants engage in refining the proof, with one providing a clearer formulation and another confirming its correctness.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and properties of open sets but express differing levels of confidence in their understanding and the proof process. The discussion remains somewhat unresolved regarding the clarity of the problem statement and the necessity of the proof.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that Munkres does not provide extensive definitions for topology, which may contribute to the confusion surrounding the problem.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in topology, metric spaces, and the foundational concepts of open sets in analysis may find this discussion beneficial.

Matthollyw00d
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Show that U(x0, ε) is an open set.

I'm reading Analysis on Manifolds by Munkres. This question is in the review on Topology section. And I've just recently been introduced to basic-basic topology from Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Rudin.

I'm not really certain where to begin on this, nor can I find a sufficient definition of open set to somewhat utilize. Any help on where to begin would be appreciated. This doesn't seem like it would be difficult or long, just kind of in unfamiliar ground here.

Thanks in advanced.
 
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What is the topology of the set that U is a subset of? A subset is open if and only if it is an element of the topology; without a topology, or a basis for the topology, the quality of being open is undefined.
 


I'm not really certain where to begin on this, nor can I find a sufficient definition of open set to somewhat utilize. Any help on where to begin would be appreciated.

I can not really help with the question since I haven't even taking a formal course in Analysis.
But a definition I got from Introduction to Real Analysis ( a book i "tried" to read over the summer ) says if the epsilon neighborhood of a point Xnot is contained in a set S then S is the neighborhood of Xnot and Xnot is an interior point in S. If every point is S is an interior point, then S is open.

Basically if you can find the epsilon neighborhood of any point in the Set S then S is open.

I don't know what else to say that would help,partly because I'm unsure of your notation.

Is U the union sign?

Anyway I assume that with the definition provided above you can show that your set is open. I guess a prove by contradiction would be appropriate, you can show that there is no point is your set that does not have an epsilon neighborhood.
 


slider142 said:
What is the topology of the set that U is a subset of? A subset is open if and only if it is an element of the topology; without a topology, or a basis for the topology, the quality of being open is undefined.
I believe it to be general for Rn. But there is nothing else in the question, except before the problems it states: "Throughout, let X be a metric space with metric d."
╔(σ_σ)╝ said:
I don't know what else to say that would help,partly because I'm unsure of your notation.

Is U the union sign?

Anyway I assume that with the definition provided above you can show that your set is open. I guess a prove by contradiction would be appropriate, you can show that there is no point is your set that does not have an epsilon neighborhood.
U is not the union sign, U(x0, ε) = {x | d(x, x0) < ε}
 


OK, so it seems like you're trying to prove that the open ball about x_0 of radius epsilon is open, where the open ball is a subset of (X, d). There are probably a few ways to do this, but the way that I've learned recently is as follows:

-show that the open ball is a neighborhood of each of its points
-an subset of a metric space can be defined as open if it is a neighborhood of each of its points
 


Matthollyw00d said:
I believe it to be general for Rn. But there is nothing else in the question, except before the problems it states: "Throughout, let X be a metric space with metric d."

U is not the union sign, U(x0, ε) = {x | d(x, x0) < ε}

That means it is assuming the metric topology on X with metric d, which means the basis for the topology is the set of all balls, each of the form B(x0[/xub], r) = {x | d(x, x0) < r}. Your task is then to show that it is either a union of elements of this basis, or if you have covered homeomorphisms, that it is homeomorphic to such a union.
 


slider142 said:
That means it is assuming the metric topology on X with metric d, which means the basis for the topology is the set of all balls, each of the form B(x0[/xub], r) = {x | d(x, x0) < r}. Your task is then to show that it is either a union of elements of this basis, or if you have covered homeomorphisms, that it is homeomorphic to such a union.


This seems a bit tautological, though. In the metric topology, open balls are open... but we're asked to prove that an open by is open? It's a strange problem, if in fact that is how it is stated.
 


Tac-Tics said:
This seems a bit tautological, though. In the metric topology, open balls are open... but we're asked to prove that an open by is open? It's a strange problem, if in fact that is how it is stated.
That is all that is written in book, verbatim.

I'll work through it a bit today in my free time and see what I come up with after reading the previous posts.
 


Let y be any point in U(x_0, \epsilon). You need to show that there exists a \delta > 0 such that U(y, \delta) \subset U(x_0, \epsilon). (This is just restating what snipez90 already said.)

Hint: The triangle inequality might come in handy here.

HTH

Petek
 
  • #10


Tac-Tics said:
This seems a bit tautological, though. In the metric topology, open balls are open... but we're asked to prove that an open by is open? It's a strange problem, if in fact that is how it is stated.

Munkres doesn't spend enough time on the topology to define a basis so, in this context, it's not quite as tautological as it seems. It really only addresses manifolds as subsets of Rn and only covers "real" manifolds with a sketchy last chapter, "Life outside Rn". On the whole though, It's probably the best introduction to the ideas that I've seen. It's a great book.

Petek gave good advice.
 
  • #11


Yah, I think I have it after further thinking about it. Once I formalize it on paper, I'll post it here and see if I have it well understood.

And I do agree that it is a great book. I'm using it along side Calculus on Manifolds by Spivak for my Differential Geometry course.
 
  • #12


U(x0,ε)={x|d(x,x0)<ε}
Let y be in U(x0,ε) such that U(y,ε'(y)) is contained in U(x0,ε).
Hence d(y,x0)+ε'(y)≤ε. Let z be in U(y,ε'(y)), so d(z,y)<ε'(y).
Hence d(z,x0)≤d(z,y)+d(y,x0)<ε'(y)+ε-ε'(y)=ε
Thus d(z,x0)<ε for all z in U(y,ε'(y)) that is contained in U(x0,ε)
Thus U(x0,ε) is open.
EndofProof.

This is what I got for the proof, I don't see anything wrong with it, just tossing it out here to make sure everything is correct, since I'm still not completely confident when dealing with open sets. Just looking for confirmation or pointing out something that is incorrect, thanks.
 
  • #13


Matthollyw00d said:
U(x0,ε)={x|d(x,x0)<ε}
Let y be in U(x0,ε) such that U(y,ε'(y)) is contained in U(x0,ε).

You are assuming that such a U(y,ε'(y)) exists. Instead, you need to show that there exists an ε'(y) > 0 such that U(y,ε'(y)) is contained in U(x0,ε). That's Munkres' definition of a set being open.

Hint: let ε'(y) = ε - d(x0, y). Show that if z is contained in U(y,ε'(y)), then z is contained in U(x0,ε). Conclude that U(y,ε'(y)) is contained in U(x0,ε).

Petek

Hence d(y,x0)+ε'(y)≤ε. Let z be in U(y,ε'(y)), so d(z,y)<ε'(y).
Hence d(z,x0)≤d(z,y)+d(y,x0)<ε'(y)+ε-ε'(y)=ε
Thus d(z,x0)<ε for all z in U(y,ε'(y)) that is contained in U(x0,ε)
Thus U(x0,ε) is open.
EndofProof.

This is what I got for the proof, I don't see anything wrong with it, just tossing it out here to make sure everything is correct, since I'm still not completely confident when dealing with open sets. Just looking for confirmation or pointing out something that is incorrect, thanks.
 
  • #14


Prove that U(x0,ε) is an open set.

Proof:

U(x0,ε)={x|d(x,x0)<ε}
Let y be in U(x0,ε) so there exists an ε'(y)>0 such that ε'(y) + d(y,x0) = ε.
Let z be in U(y,ε'(y)), so d(z,y)<ε'(y).
Hence d(z,x0)≤d(z,y)+d(y,x0)<ε'(y)+ε-ε'(y)=ε
Thus d(z,x0)<ε for all z in U(y,ε'(y)).
ThusU(y,ε'(y)) that is contained in U(x0,ε).
Thus U(x0,ε) is open.
QED.

Thanks for the help Petek. Is this better now or have a failed to sufficiently prove something?
 
  • #15


Looks good!

Petek
 

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