Reason why the chair can support me

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasons why a chair can support a person's weight, exploring concepts from quantum mechanics, electromagnetism, and classical physics. Participants examine various explanations, including the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, electromagnetic forces, and the Pauli exclusion principle, while questioning the applicability of quantum mechanics to macroscopic phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant cites a physicist's explanation involving the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, suggesting that electron interactions between the body and chair create pressure that supports weight.
  • Another participant argues that the electromagnetic repulsion between electrons is the primary reason the chair supports weight, challenging the initial quantum explanation.
  • A different viewpoint introduces the concept of virtual photons in the electromagnetic field as a mechanism for momentum transfer that prevents falling through the chair.
  • Degeneracy pressure, as described by the Pauli exclusion principle, is mentioned as a quantum mechanical effect that differs from electric repulsion and thermal motion.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the relevance of quantum mechanics to classical phenomena, suggesting that the rules of physics are already established and that predictive systems are man-made constructs.
  • There is a discussion about the philosophical implications of deducing macroscopic phenomena from microscopic behavior, with some arguing that such deductions are not valid.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the explanation for why a chair can support weight. Multiple competing views are presented, with some favoring quantum mechanical explanations and others advocating for classical interpretations based on electromagnetic forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in applying quantum mechanics to macroscopic scenarios, highlighting unresolved questions about the relationship between quantum and classical systems. There is also mention of the strength of materials as a factor that cannot be fully explained through quantum mechanics alone.

  • #61
alfredblase said:
Bah you guys call yourselves physicists and can't come up with an all round satisfactory answer to why you don't fall through a chair?! Let's us assume we have a diamond crystal large enough to sit on. This will be our chair. The question then becomes: why am I unable to compress a diamond crystal by sitting on it, by an amount noticeable to the naked eye? The answer of course is that diamond has a crystal structure that is resistant enough.
Q : Why can the chair resist my weight.
A: Because the material of the chair is resistant enough.

This crystal structure is held together by the electro-magnetic forces exerted on each atom by each atom.
This (the role of EM interactions between atoms) has been stated at least thrice in this thread before your "pioneering" post. Besides, a wooden chair has no crystal structure.

And these atoms do not collapse because of Pauli's exclusion principle, the EM force and the quantized nature of electron orbitals.
That's a complete non-answer (and the question has nothing to do with why an atom is stable, so everything from this point on is just fluff).

Secondly, you can't just throw words around and call it an explanation. I contend that the reason for the stability of the atom (of the chair under the forces it seees from your butt ) comes from time-dependent perturbation theory (applied to the eigenstates of the electrons), and can not be explained by the Exclusion Principle.

Thirdly - and this is pedantry -there is no mention of any kind of "force" in the QM description of an atom.

And what about the HUP? Well, yeah, that works too, but the HUP alone is not enough because we would not conserve atomic structure.
You are not saying anything physically meaningful with this sentence. What do you mean by "that works too" ?

And why do the nuclei not fall apart? Well that's because of the strong force, the quantized nature of nucleon orbitals (see the shell model) and Pauli's principle (again HUP is not enough on its own as we must conserve nuclear structure). And why do the nucleons not tear apart? Well that's QCD for you. Nuff said... (dear oh dear).
All you've done is show that you know some key words. Please, show me how QCD ensures the stability of the nucleon. I can't recall how asymptotic freedom arises out of the color of virtual gluons...

Blase : Your "explanation" is not explaining anything more than for instance, if I said : the reason the chair supports me is that this outcome corresponds to a local free energy minimum in the system whose activation energy is extremely large compared to thermal energies. This at least, is correct.

The only part of your post that goes towards answering the question, is the part that has been covered more than a few times before you joined this thread.

Edit: PS : Nuff said.
 

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