Recovering (?) from a fight in a relationship

[PeroK]

This entire colloquy has produced an incredulous look on my face...just so you know

What does your wife think?

 

[fresh_42]

Gut feeling though? Berkman will step in with "thread closed for moderation"
Then...

Well, the topic has changed from a specific situation to a general discussion about mainly classical relationships. This is a bottomless barrel. It literally fills libraries! So we could either go on forever or close it since it probably won't reveal any new, and nothing we didn't already have a song for, or someone knows an example. Furthermore, we even already faced a loss of contenance.

Be prepared that one of us will do the inevitable. Means: it is on hold until the previous question will be answered since it is a bit unfair to close a thread with an open question.

 

[pinball1970]

Well, the topic has changed from a specific situation to a general discussion about mainly classical relationships. This is a bottomless barrel. It literally fills libraries! So we could either go on forever or close it since it probably won't reveal any new, and nothing we didn't already have a song for, or someone knows an example. Furthermore, we even already faced a loss of contenance.

Be prepared that one of us will do the inevitable. Means: it is on hold until the previous question will be answered since it is a bit unfair to close a thread with an open question.

That's a point.
Where is @ergospherical ? Did you get her roses or what?

 

[Jarvis323]

If relationships did work then divorce would be a small % but it is not where women have a choice in their lives.

There's a simple model for each of us to explain our experiences and some data, and then there is the truth, which is always more complicated.

I think in relationships, of all kinds between people, being cognitive of that is important. The issue is the assumptions we make to satisfy our model leads us to falsely represent the people we apply them to, and nobody likes to be misrepresented and misunderstood.

So I would say, don't assume to know how the other person sees things or feels, and at least don't rely on simple models, or stereotypes. Furthermore, I think it is best to give the other person in the relationship some freedom to have their own views, or to be upset or annoyed about something, even if you don't understand it. Rather than fighting them and trying to invalidate their point of view, either internally or externally, it is better to just be open and compassionate. And if there is some hidden cause for their dissatisfaction that isn't clear, and you don't know what it is, and you want to ameliorate that, you can at least just try to just be nice and helpful.

 

[256bits]

I would say this is her problem. She is reacting irrationally / arguing over harmless things.

Well he doesn't say whether he has known her for 2 days, 2 weeks , 2 months. ...
No reference to the depth of their relationship and commitment.
Not knowing ( actually it is irrelevant ) , and the fact that she is complaining about HIS friends, I would trust that your advice is sound and proper. From the little information given ( isn't it always the case ), it would seem as if she is starting a control part rather subtly.
She should be buying him flowers and apologizing to him for her behavior.

 

[pinball1970]

Well he doesn't say whether he has known her for 2 days, 2 weeks , 2 months. ...
No reference to the depth of their relationship and commitment.
Not knowing ( actually it is irrelevant ) , and the fact that she is complaining about HIS friends, I would trust that your advice is sound and proper. From the little information given ( isn't it always the case ), it would seem as if she is starting a control part rather subtly.
She should be buying him flowers and apologizing to him for her behavior.

Like I said, @ergospherical needs to take her to dinner, one on one. No mates, Italian. Book it not somewhere cheap so she knows you mean business.
Do not mention the argument till she has had her starter or main if possible.
Start apologizing after her first glass of wine is best. Get it out of the way.
Guaranteed 15 minutes from her, don't interrupt that means you want her to stop talking. Take the tears. Arm on her shoulder, you adore this lady yes?
Friday is best she will be more relaxed, lectures finished till Monday as us work.

 

[hutchphd]

Furthermore, we even already faced a loss of contenance.

OK I initially read this as a loss of continence which pretty well disqualifies me from future input!
I trust @ergospherical has the good sense to proceed carefully and deliberately.

 

[fresh_42]

OK I initially read this as a loss of continence which pretty well disqualifies me from future input!
I trust @ergospherical has the good sense to proceed carefully and deliberately.

In a way, it means the same thing, however, in a completely different context. Losing contenance sounds so much better than losing composure or control. Google translate can't even handle it. (I ended up with capacity or version if I make the way through German.)

 

[Vanadium 50]

You have put a bit of weight on babe

]

 

[OCR]

Best advice you could ever get. . .We believe in happy endings - Emmylou Harris & Earl Thomas Conley .

.

 

[russ_watters]

I would say this is her problem. She is reacting irrationally / arguing over harmless things.

You're not necessarily wrong(there's no way for us to interpret and we only have the OP's biased judgement), but what you describe is a recipe for a failed relationship. And even if you/he are correct his reaction was still wrong. OP has to decide if her feelings matter to him or not, and if the answer is no, just make a clean break. Responding with gamesmanship is cruel and counterproductive.

 

[russ_watters]

Not knowing ( actually it is irrelevant ) , and the fact that she is complaining about HIS friends, I would trust that your advice is sound and proper. From the little information given ( isn't it always the case ), it would seem as if she is starting a control part rather subtly.
She should be buying him flowers and apologizing to him for her behavior.

Maybe. But I once dated a girl who was pretty quiet and the first time my friends met her they reacted by trying to provoke her by being loudmouth jackasses. Her fault?

 

[256bits]

Like I said, @ergospherical needs to take her to dinner, one on one. No mates, Italian. Book it not somewhere cheap so she knows you mean business.
Do not mention the argument till she has had her starter or main if possible.
Start apologizing after her first glass of wine is best. Get it out of the way.
Guaranteed 15 minutes from her, don't interrupt that means you want her to stop talking. Take the tears. Arm on her shoulder, you adore this lady yes?
Friday is best she will be more relaxed, lectures finished till Monday as us work.

That is quite man-centric.

Certainly it takes two to tango.
How the argument started is indeterminate at this point.
It is the continuation though that led to the emotional response of the OP.
To walk away might have been a good thing. The hurtful communication de-escalated immediately.

No responding to her calls might not have been - he could have responded there by saying he needed a break, he is fine, hope she is fine, and we will talk about it later hun. No worries babe.
So, if he wants to apologize it should be over the silent treatment that he gave her - that is the worst bit.

Her mind was probably going crazy, driving her nuts, and I think that is what she resents the most.
[ Could it be she is giving it back the same way to him - game playing perhaps/perhaps not - you, or rather, they decide ]
Not the argument, not who was a winner/looser but being ignored as if she was non-existent.
Not a way to win someone's heart.

[ ever wonder why your mom yelled at you for not calling were you were - typically the same - she was worried about you, and for some the worst that could ever happen goes through their mind -you got hit by a bus and now you are lying in a gutter and need help - not all people are like that but the not knowing if you are safe is the worst ]

Just as an aside,
By the way, if a pattern is introduced such as hurt-apologize-forgive- make up, hurt-apologize-forgive make up, there is a lot of words on potential abusive relationships from either partner that end up being extremely toxic in that regard - perhaps exciting and some can stand it, others can't, for the long term.

 

[256bits]

Maybe. But I once dated a girl who was pretty quiet and the first time my friends met her they reacted by trying to provoke her by being loudmouth jackasses. Her fault?

Was she brought out of her shell by that treatment, and brought into feeling that she was the group?
I don't see any fault there yet, unless she objected and they didn't quit.
Then yes they could be labelled as jerks.

 

[russ_watters]

Was she brought out of her shell by that treatment, and brought into feeling that she was the group?
I don't see any fault there yet, unless she objected and they didn't quit.
Then yes they could be labelled as jerks.

That was our last date. No, she didn't appreciate it.

 

[pinball1970]

This entire colloquy has produced an incredulous look on my face...just so you know

I wanted some divorce numbers, some justification for my advice to Ergo

42% divorce rate UK in 50% USA (Average cost UK is £14,561)

20 to 40% of married men and 20 to 25% of married women extra marital affairs

1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men over the age of 18 have been the victim of physical domestic violence

Almost 50% of both sexes have experienced some form of domestic psychological aggression.

Also Studies on filicide, Parricide, femicide and Uxoricide.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/26/femicide-us-silent-epidemic

https://pure.roehampton.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/448033/CCJ_Pre_Published_Holt2017.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5282617/

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/UN_BriefFem_251121.pdfhttps://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/978-1-137-56276-0_11

 

[Office_Shredder]

The divorce date varies a lot depending on economic and social factors. The divorce rate for college graduates is only 30%. I suspect the domestic violence numbers etc are also pretty skewed though I haven't checked.

Besides that, marriage for life is a really high standard. Getting married for twenty five years, raising three kids then splitting amicably is considered a failure, but should it?

 

[PeroK]

Besides that, marriage for life is a really high standard. Getting married for twenty five years, raising three kids then splitting amicably is considered a failure, but should it?

It is if you've taken a solemn vow "until death do us part".

 

[pinball1970]

The divorce date varies a lot depending on economic and social factors. The divorce rate for college graduates is only 30%. I suspect the domestic violence numbers etc are also pretty skewed though I haven't checked.

Besides that, marriage for life is a really high standard. Getting married for twenty five years, raising three kids then splitting amicably is considered a failure, but should it?

Yes I think that is also the case. If you are poor, on benefits (social) live in an area where there is high crime, low education/aspirations, drugs and gangs then all those negative connotations will be there in those marriages and relationships.

More well off people will do better, a third rather than half get divorced.

30% failure rate, I suppose that's better than every other one?
Would you be ok with a 30% failure rate in your development projects at work? Your research?

Over your career?

This is a question I am thinking about framing and it is nothing to do with divorce rates.
It is to do with my OP to the OP

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would also argue a high divorce rate is not a good reason for one party to act like a grad A jackass.

 

[hutchphd]

30% failure rate, I suppose that's better than every other one?

This is a silly analysis IMHO For instance, all marriages that do not last "forever" are not failures.
What is the cost benefit analysis? Failures compared to what?? I can't figure out whether this argument is misogyny, general misanthropy, or pro-monasticism. Or what ?
In the long run we're all dead, too.

.

 

[Office_Shredder]

30% failure rate, I suppose that's better than every other one?
Would you be ok with a 30% failure rate in your development projects at work? Your research?

Over your career?

What percent of people who get a PhD end up with a tenure position? I would guess it's less than half, meaning marriage is a better bet than getting a career in academia under your metric.

Or I don't know
https://www.peta.org/blog/experimen...-done/#:~:text=1.,to lead to human treatments.

Feel free to be skeptical of peta's numbers, but marriage probably has a higher success rate than most scientific research also.

https://www.cappex.com/articles/blo...al four-year graduation,a degree in six years.

Graduating college is another example that doesn't really look better than marriage.

I don't know, you make it out like 50/50 is a terrible rate but people do lots of things in life that don't succeed even half the time, and some of those things are huge investments (go to college, run a pharmaceutical trial).

Happy to move this to another thread to avoid polluting this one

 

[pinball1970]

What percent of people who get a PhD end up with a tenure position? I would guess it's less than half, meaning marriage is a better bet than getting a career in academia under your metric.

Or I don't know
https://www.peta.org/blog/experiments-on-animals-fail-90-of-the-time-why-are-they-still-done/#:~:text=1.,to lead to human treatments.

Feel free to be skeptical of peta's numbers, but marriage probably has a higher success rate than most scientific research also.

https://www.cappex.com/articles/blog/government-publishes-graduation-rate-data#:~:text=The official four-year graduation,a degree in six years.

Graduating college is another example that doesn't really look better than marriage.

I don't know, you make it out like 50/50 is a terrible rate but people do lots of things in life that don't succeed even half the time, and some of those things are huge investments (go to college, run a pharmaceutical trial).

Happy to move this to another thread to avoid polluting this one

You are ok with 50%? That's fine.

 

[pinball1970]

This is a silly analysis IMHO For instance, all marriages that do not last "forever" are not failures.
What is the cost benefit analysis? Failures compared to what?? I can't figure out whether this argument is misogyny, general misanthropy, or pro-monasticism. Or what ?
In the long run we're all dead, too.

.

Analysis? I just just put a few stats in there.

Do you have more rigorous numbers? More recent?

 

[pinball1970]

I would also argue a high divorce rate is not a good reason for one party to act like a grad A jackass.

Agreed. Most peopleople getting married probably do not look at the numbers beforehand though.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The triumph of hope over experience.

 

[hutchphd]

Analysis? I just just put a few stats in there.

Do you have more rigorous numbers? More recent?

I think the latest data shows that in the long run we are still dead.

My question was really what was your point, statistics or not.

 

[mathwonk]

Just my 2 cents on divorce rates. I have known quite a few people who married, then divorced, and then married again for a much longer period, often for the rest of their lives.

At first I faulted them, but these people were usually much happier with their second spouse than their first. So my take on it now is that it is not always easy to recognize the right person the first time, and it can actually be helpful to acknowledge that and move on. Once you find the right person for you, hang in there, but maybe it is not required to pretend with the wrong person.

So finding your soulmate should perhaps be counted as success, even if it took a couple tries. I realize not everyone will feel this way, and there is also wisdom perhaps in trying hard to make a marriage work, if it can, by trying to mature. I did not start out with this point of view on divorce, but many years of observing my friends and their journeys has brought me here.

 

[berkeman]

This ^^^^

It turned out that my first wife was dishonest with me (and her parents) about a fundamental part of her philosophy about having kids. I did not find this out until after we had kids, which was very unfortunate. After the kids were over 18 we divorced (very expensive divorce for me).

I've been very lucky to find my soulmate since then, and we are now very happily married. We both share the same philosophy about raising and nurturing and encouraging the best in our kids and grandkids, which is wonderful.

And to @ergospherical -- I guess all that I can say is to be open and honest in your relationships, and ask for the same in return. Be open to listen to constructive criticism, and be willing to offer the same in the right spirit. When you start linking up with the right potential soulmates, you will find that this approach makes things go much smoother.

(Modulo the hormones that young folks have flowing through their bloodstreams -- that will make this much more challenging for a number of years in your young life...)

 

[Vanadium 50]

very expensive divorce

As the old joke goes, "Why is divorce so expensive?" "Because it's worth every penny."