Red shift of light and expanding universe - Your help needed.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of redshift and blueshift of light in the context of an expanding universe, particularly focusing on the implications of the Doppler effect and the energy associated with light emitted from moving objects. Participants explore the reasoning behind the perceived increase in energy of blue-shifted light and its implications for the understanding of the universe's expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a hypothetical scenario involving a star moving towards Earth and questions the implications of blue-shifted light appearing to have more energy upon reception.
  • Another participant suggests that the additional energy can be accounted for by the kinetic energy of the emitting system, which decreases due to the recoil from the emitted photon.
  • A later reply emphasizes that energy is not conserved across different reference frames and that energy and momentum undergo Lorentz transformations, suggesting a complexity in the reasoning presented.
  • It is noted that the relativistic Doppler effect and cosmological redshift are distinct phenomena, each governed by different principles and formulas.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the initial reasoning regarding energy and redshift. Some participants appear to support the reasoning, while others challenge it, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of applying classical concepts of energy conservation in relativistic contexts and the need for careful consideration of reference frames when discussing phenomena like redshift.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying astrophysics, cosmology, or the principles of relativity, particularly in relation to the behavior of light and the implications for the expanding universe.

royp
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This relates to Doppler's effect.

The phenomenon: It is quite simple and says that light emitted from a moving object will be redshifted when the object is moving away from us (earth) and blueshifted when the object is moving towards us (earth). I was thinking of this phenomenon and arrived at some unexplainable conclusions. Looks like there are some flaws in the reasoning but I am unable to find it.

I need your help in uncovering the flaw.

The scenario: We will consider the following hypothetical scenario. A star is moving towards the earth. Then the light coming from the star will be blue-shifted.Now, more formally, suppose, an element X on the surface of the star is in state S and emitting monochromatic Red light with frequency v1. If we write the corresponding energy equation,

E1 = hv1 (from Planck's law, h is Planck's constant)

Now, due to reference frame invariance, had we brought the same element X in state S on the surface of the earth, it will emit the same red light with the same frequency. In other words, had it been brought to earth, it would have satisfied the same energy equation viz.

E1 = hv1.

Now, as the star is moving towards us, this red light emitted from element X will appear to an observer on Earth as blue-shifted Suppose. the frequency of the light beam is v2. So, the corresponding energy equation is:

E2 = hv2

Now, v2 > v1 (As the light is blue-shifted)

=> hv2 > hv1

=> E2 > E1

In other words, the beam of light (appears to) have more energy when received on Earth than when it started from the star.

But the question is: who has provided this additional energy and when?

There is quite likely some flaw in the above line of thought. But assuming that the above reasoning is correct, then we will be forced to conclude that so called blue shifting is not happening.

Then, as a logical extension of the above reasoning, red-shifting is also not tenable.

Which will bring us to the big question: Is the universe really expanding? Or at any rate, Is there sufficient evidence to conclusively say that the universe is really expanding? That in turn, will bring in bigger questions on Big Bang etc.
 
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royp said:
But the question is: who has provided this additional energy and when?

The kinetic energy of the emitting system, which decreased by the same amount due to the recoil from the momentum of the photon.
 
Guys,

Thanks for your help. Some of you have gone through the above post. I presume that you didn't find the argument presented is flawed. That boosted my confidence. I have now rearranged things more formally and would be sending as a paper for publication.

royp
 
Two comments:

Energy alone is not conserved when changing reference frames; energy and momentum are subject to Lorentz transformation; their values change in a similar way as time and distance change in special relativity.

Even if it may not be obvious: the relativistic Doppler effect due to relative motion between source and detector and cosmological redshift due to expansion of space are two different effects and results in different formulas!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift#Difference_from_a_Doppler_effect
 

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