Regular derivation on The Universal Law of Gravitation?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of Newton's law of gravitation, specifically addressing the combination of proportionalities related to force, mass, and distance. Participants explore the mathematical reasoning behind the derivation and question the validity of certain steps in the process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the derivation of the gravitational force, questioning the combination of proportionalities for mass and distance.
  • Another participant asserts that the step taken by the original poster is incorrect, emphasizing the need for a single force law that adheres to both proportionalities.
  • A participant clarifies that while multiplying proportionalities is mathematically valid, the resulting expression may not maintain the original proportional relationships.
  • There is a suggestion that deriving the law using Kepler's Laws may not be productive, and instead, it is proposed to accept the law as valid if it aligns with experimental results.
  • A later post mentions that if units are chosen appropriately, the gravitational constant G can be set to 1, implying a simplification in certain contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the validity of the original derivation steps. There are competing views on how to approach the derivation and whether alternative derivations are necessary or useful.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of adhering to the original proportionalities when combining them, but there is no resolution on the implications of this for the derivation process.

I am Meaningless
Hello Everybody, I am Meaningless and I had this doubt on Newtons laws of gravitation while deriving it. My textbook stated the following derivation 9 for any two masses m1, m2, and radius 'r'
It stated that according to the law of product of masses,
F (Directly Proportional) m1*m2
And according to the inverse square law,
F (Directly Proportional) 1/r2
Now here came my doubt..:
They then said that, When both Forces (F's) were combined, we would get,
F ( Directly Proportional) m1m2/r2
But I thought of elaborating the ''combination'' and logically approached it. Here's what I got:
If F was directly proportional to the product of the masses, the it would be equal to the product of the masses and a proportionality constant which I took as 'k'.
Now similarly if F was directly proportional to the inverse of the square of the radius then it would be equal to the inverse of the square of the radius multiplied by a proportionality constant which I took as 'l'.
Now if I multiplied them I would get...
F2 = K*L*m1*m2/r2
and if I rooted (square root) the entire equation on both sides I would get...
F = (SQRT)[K*L*M1*M2/R2]

Which did not seem to match with F = Gm1m2/r2
Now please tell me if:
1.There is any rule with the Proportionality that I am not aware of (or)
2.What my textbook has given is wrong
3. This was experimentally proved as an exception
4. If there is any other derivation for it
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance :-)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I am Meaningless said:
Now if I multiplied them
This step is wrong. You need one force law which obeys both proportionalities. The product you took does not obey either.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: I am Meaningless
Dale said:
This step is wrong. You need one force law which obeys both proportionalities. The product you took does not obey either.
Thanks a lot for the reply Dale. So can I conclude that, I can only multiply two proportionalities only if one side of both equation obeys the original proportionalities? Also could you give another derivation perhaps by using Kepler's Laws, to make my understanding clearly? If that is Impossible, then could you just give another derivation?
 
I am Meaningless said:
I can only multiply two proportionalities only if one side of both equation obeys the original proportionalities?
You can certainly multiply two proportionalities any time you feel like it. However, the square root of the resulting expression may no longer be proportional to either of the original proportionalities. The operation that you did is mathematically valid, but just doesn't have the result you require.

I am Meaningless said:
Also could you give another derivation perhaps by using Kepler's Laws, to make my understanding clearly? If that is Impossible, then could you just give another derivation?
I don’t think that a derivation is particularly productive. I would just take the law as a given and check to see if it matches the result of experiments. If it does, then you can use it regardless of how it is obtained.
 
Last edited:
Dale said:
You can certainly multiply two proportionalities any time you feel like it. However, the square root of the resulting expression may no longer be proportional to either of the original proportionalities. The operation that you did is mathematically valid, but just doesn't have the result you require.

I don’t think that a derivation is particularly productive. I would just take the law as a given and check to see if it matches the result of experiments. If it does, then you can use it regardless of how it is obtained.
Okay, Thanks a lot Dale.
 
If the units are suitably chosen, the numerical value of G = 1.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
5K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K