Relation between "widths" of non-paralleogram

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around different methods for determining the "width" of a non-parallelogram shape, specifically focusing on the relationships between various measurements of width and the geometric properties of the shape. Participants explore theoretical and mathematical approaches to derive formulas related to these measurements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One method for measuring width involves finding the distance between two sides at a midpoint while aligning a ruler parallel to the bottom edge, labeled as ##w_A##.
  • Another method measures the distance with a ruler held horizontally, resulting in a value labeled ##w_B##.
  • A third approach seeks to find the least distance from a specific point to the right-hand side edge, denoted as ##w_C##.
  • Participants discuss a relationship between ##w_B## and ##w_A##, proposing a formula that incorporates trigonometric functions based on angles related to the shape.
  • One participant suggests using the Law of Sines to derive a formula for the distance from point ##P## to point ##Q## as a function of an angle ##\phi##.
  • Another participant asserts that the shortest distance from a point to a line is along a perpendicular, questioning the need for a formula for this distance.
  • There is a clarification that the least distance from point ##P## to the right-hand edge is not the same as the distance from point ##P''## to the left-hand edge, emphasizing the non-parallelogram nature of the shape.
  • One participant successfully derives a formula for the distance from point ##P## to the right-hand edge and plots it, noting a minimum distance at a specific angle.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the necessity of certain calculations and the implications of the angles involved in determining distances.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the necessity of deriving certain formulas, with some arguing that the shortest distance is already established through perpendicularity, while others continue to explore the implications of the angles and measurements involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to determine the least distance from point ##P## to the right-hand edge.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the right-hand edge is tilted away from vertical, which affects the calculations of distances. There are unresolved assumptions regarding the angles and their impact on the derived formulas.

julian
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I'm trying to relate different ways of getting a value for the "width" of a non-parallelogram. The non-parallelogram is given in figure 1: note that the left-hand side edge is vertical, the right-hand side is tilted 4 degrees away from vertical, and the bottom edge is 24 degrees below the horizontal.

(i) One way of obtaining a value for the "width" is measuring the distance between the two sides midway up while having the ruler parallel to the bottom edge. This is represented by the solid line with arrow in figure 2 from point ##P## to point ##P'##. We label the value this distance by ##w_A##.

(ii) Another way would be to measure the distance but having the ruler horizontal (that is, have the ruler at right-angles to the left-hand side edge). This is represented by the dashed line with arrow in figure 2 from point ##P## to point ##P''##. We label this distance by ##w_B##.

(iii) Another way would be to find the least distance from the point P to the right-hand side edge. We label this distance by ##w_C##.

Note that for a perfect rectangle we would have ##w_A = w_B = w_C##!

Figure 3 is a close up of the triangle ##PP'P''## from figure 2. Obviously this is a non-right-angled triangle but can be split into two right angled triangles. From this I can relate ##w_B## to ##w_A##:

##
w_B = w_A \cos 24^0 + w_A \sin 24^0 \; \tan 4^0
##

(see figure 3 for calculation). Is that correct?

In order to address part (iii) I want to find a formula for the distance from the point ##P## to the point ##Q## as a function of ##\phi## as indicated in figure 4. Wondering if I could use the Law of Sines on the triangle ##PQP''## in figure 4 to do this and how to go about it? I could then use simple calculus to find minimum or/and plot the function on wolfram given ##w_A = 5.1##.

figure 1.jpg


figure 2.jpg


figure 3.jpg


figure 4.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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You don't need "to find a formula for the distance from the point P P to the point Q Q as a function of ϕ as indicated in figure 4." It is easy to show that the shortest distance from a point to a line is along a perpendicular to that line and that is what you already have.
 
HallsofIvy said:
You don't need "to find a formula for the distance from the point P P to the point Q Q as a function of ϕ as indicated in figure 4." It is easy to show that the shortest distance from a point to a line is along a perpendicular to that line and that is what you already have.

I want the least distance from the point P to the right-hand edge. The right-hand edge is tilted away from vertical by 4 degrees, so a line from P will meet the right-hand edge perpendicularly if this line is 4 degrees below the horizontal. Correct?

The least distance from the point P to the right-hand edge will be then be ##w_B \cos 4^0##, or

##
(w_A \cos 24^0 + w_A sin 24^0 \; \tan4^0) cos 4^0
##

Substituting in ##w_A = 5.1##, we get the minimum distance is 4.79.

(Important to note that the line ##PP''## does not meet the right-hand edge perpendicularly as the right-hand edge is tilted 4 degrees away from vertical - see figure 2).

(EDIT: meant to say the line ##PP''## - corrected it now.)
 
Last edited:
I have been able to derive formula for ##d_{PQ}## using the law of sines on the triangle ##PQP''## - I will express it as a function of ##\phi## where THIS TIME ##\phi## is defined as the angle below the horizontal:

##
d_{PQ} (\phi) = {w_A cos 24^0 + w_A \sin 24^0 \tan 4^0 \over \cos (4^0 - \phi)}
##

I put ##w_a = 5.1## and plotted the function on wolfram:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?.../+cos+((4+-+\phi)+*+pi/180))+between+0+and+24

and there is indeed a minimum at ##4^0##, with the minimum distance is 4.79!

(Note: that wolfram calculates in radians, but I want to work in degrees - this is easily taken care of by multiplying every angle by ##\pi / 180##).
 
HallsofIvy said:
You don't need "to find a formula for the distance from the point P P to the point Q Q as a function of ϕ as indicated in figure 4." It is easy to show that the shortest distance from a point to a line is along a perpendicular to that line and that is what you already have.

I see. You are in actual fact answering the question what is the least distance from the point ##P''## to the left-hand edge (line), and ##w_B## would indeed be the answer (see from figure 2 that the dashed line from ##P''## to ##P## is perpendicular to the left-hand edge).

However, what I asked was what is the least distance from the point ##P## to the right-hand edge (line). These two questions have different answers precisely because it is a non-parallelogram. Whence the factor ##\cos 4^0## in ##w_B \cos 4^0##.
 
Last edited:
So I want the least distance from the point ##P## to a line, the line being the right-hand edge. I've drawn a diagram to clarify the situation - see figure "least".

Note the horizontal (the dashed line) is NOT perpendicular to the right-hand edge because the right-hand edge is tilted away from vertical by ##4## degrees.

I have drawn in the perpendicular to the right-hand edge. It shouldn't be too difficult to see that the length of the perpendicular is ##w_B \cos 4^0##, where ##w_B## is the length of the horizontal - see figure "least".
 

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