Relativistic addition of velocities without lorentz transformations

• bernhard.rothenstein
In summary, the conversation discusses the derivation of the addition law for velocities in relation to the constancy of the velocity of light and the theory of special relativity. The Author presents a derivation that does not require the use of length contraction, time dilation, or the relativity of simultaneity. Some argue that this type of derivation is useful for understanding the consistency of the theory, but may not be the main focus and could distract students from the main concept of invariance. Others suggest that the way in which the relative velocity is measured is important to consider, and that the notation used in classical mechanics may not necessarily carry over to relativistic equations. Overall, it is important for teachers and users of special relativity to strike a balance between
bernhard.rothenstein
I have studied
N.David Mermin "Relativistic addition of velocities directly from the constancy of the velocity of light," Am.J.Phys. 51 1130 1983 and others with the same subject quoted by the Author. He describes a derivation of the addition law that dispenses not only with the LT but also makes no us of length contraction, time dilation or the relativity of silmultaneity.
He starts directly using the concept of speed without mentioning how do we measure it absolute length/absolute time interval; proper length/coordinate time interval or proper length/poper time interval. Does that diminish the value of the derivation?

bernhard,

This derivation is very nice to read.
Like for everything its value depends on its usage.

I think that the unity of SRT and the unity of GRT lie in the invariance with respect to coordinate transformations.
Therefore this derivations is mainly useful to show the consistency of the theory on one more example and to give -by training- additional intuition to the students.
However, too much use of this kind of special case illustrations could distract the students from the main point: invariance.

Personally I like to read such arguments as much as I like to forget them.
If we look back in the past all kind of geometrical construction used in geometry, mechanics and optics, we can see an analogy: all these constructions are very nice to learn but they can be forgotten since they do not represent the main aspect of these domains of mathematics or physics.

Michel

bernhard.rothenstein said:
I have studied
N.David Mermin "Relativistic addition of velocities directly from the constancy of the velocity of light," Am.J.Phys. 51 1130 1983 and others with the same subject quoted by the Author. He describes a derivation of the addition law that dispenses not only with the LT but also makes no us of length contraction, time dilation or the relativity of silmultaneity.
He starts directly using the concept of speed without mentioning how do we measure it absolute length/absolute time interval; proper length/coordinate time interval or proper length/poper time interval. Does that diminish the value of the derivation?
Actually, the addition of velocities can be an intermediate step in deriving the LT, and so come before the LT in the logic.

velocities in SR

Meir Achuz said:
Actually, the addition of velocities can be an intermediate step in deriving the LT, and so come before the LT in the logic.
Thanks. Probably I was not specific enough starting the thread. My problem is how the relative velocity V of the involved inertial reference frames appears in the relativistic formulas? Let us follow
Jay Orear, Physics 1979. (Ch.8.4 my book is in German).
He starts with the derivation of the time dilation formula using light clocks in relative motion with speed V without mentioning how we measure it.
The transformation equations of classical mechanics are presented as
x=x'+Vt' (1)
t=t' (2)
and the reader supposes that V is measured as abolute length/absolute time interval.
The guessed shape of the relativistic transformations is
x=Ax'+Bt' (3)
t=Dt'+Ex' (4)
considering that A,B,D and E are a function of the same V as in (1). Imposing different situations for which (3) and (4) should account the Lorentz transformations are derived
x=g(V)(x'+Vt') (5)
t=g(V)(t'+Vx'/cc) (6)
If (1) and (2) lead to
u=u'+V (7)
u=(u'+V)/(1+Vu'/cc) (8)
(7) and (8) leading to the same result only for u'=0. Is that the result of the reciprocity: if you move relative to me I move relative to you with -V.
Could we say that not changing the notation for V when we go from classic to relativistic we act correctly? Is it worth to mention that fact when we present the subject to allert students? The textbooks I know do not mention that.

teachers and users of special relativity

lalbatros said:
bernhard,

This derivation is very nice to read.
Like for everything its value depends on its usage.

I think that the unity of SRT and the unity of GRT lie in the invariance with respect to coordinate transformations.
Therefore this derivations is mainly useful to show the consistency of the theory on one more example and to give -by training- additional intuition to the students.
However, too much use of this kind of special case illustrations could distract the students from the main point: invariance.

Personally I like to read such arguments as much as I like to forget them.
If we look back in the past all kind of geometrical construction used in geometry, mechanics and optics, we can see an analogy: all these constructions are very nice to learn but they can be forgotten since they do not represent the main aspect of these domains of mathematics or physics.

Michel
Michel,
thank you for the attention paid to my thread. As I see, it is a big difference between the way in which users and teachers of special relativity theory answer the questions raised by the participants on the Forum.
As a teacher of it I like the derivations which derive the formulas that account for the relativistic effects, injecting at a given point of the derivation the first principle showing finally that the Lorentz transformations account for all of them.
Bernhard

1. What is the theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations?

The theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations is a mathematical concept used to calculate the combined velocity of two objects moving at different speeds in the same direction. It is based on the principles of special relativity and does not require the use of Lorentz transformations.

2. How does the theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations differ from the traditional formula for adding velocities?

The traditional formula for adding velocities does not account for the effects of special relativity, such as time dilation and length contraction. The theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations takes these effects into consideration and provides a more accurate calculation for the combined velocity.

3. What are the limitations of using the theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations?

This theory is only applicable when the two objects are moving in the same direction. It also does not take into account the effects of gravity or acceleration. In extreme cases, such as when the objects are moving at speeds close to the speed of light, the results may be inaccurate and Lorentz transformations would be necessary.

4. Can the theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations be applied to objects moving in different directions?

No, this theory is only valid for objects moving in the same direction. When objects are moving in different directions, the traditional formula for adding velocities should be used.

5. How is the theory of relativistic addition of velocities without Lorentz transformations used in real-world applications?

This theory is used in fields such as astrophysics, where objects are moving at very high speeds and the effects of special relativity cannot be ignored. It is also used in particle accelerators to calculate the velocities of particles.

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