Resolving the Paradox of Entropy and Energy

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    Entropy Paradox
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between entropy and energy, particularly in the context of thermodynamics. Participants explore how changes in energy affect entropy in various systems, including gases and air conditioning units. The conversation includes theoretical implications, textbook references, and examples from classical thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that when energy drops, entropy increases, while others argue that this is incorrect, stating that removing energy from a system decreases its entropy.
  • One participant emphasizes that total entropy never decreases, but the entropy of individual systems can decrease if another system compensates by increasing its entropy.
  • There is confusion regarding the relationship between energy loss in gases and entropy, with some claiming that a gas's entropy should increase as energy decreases, while others challenge this view by pointing out that solidification leads to lower entropy.
  • Participants reference external sources, such as Wikipedia, to support their claims about entropy and energy, leading to requests for specific quotes and examples.
  • Questions arise about the nature of entropy as a non-conserved state function, with discussions about scenarios where entropy changes may appear to be conserved.
  • Some participants discuss the role of air conditioning in entropy changes, noting that while the system cools the air inside a room (decreasing entropy), it simultaneously increases the entropy of the surrounding environment.
  • There is a suggestion that multiple systems are at play in the context of air conditioning, leading to complex interactions of entropy changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between energy and entropy. Multiple competing views are presented, leading to ongoing debate and clarification attempts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of thermodynamic principles, reliance on different sources for definitions, and the complexity of systems involved in entropy changes.

  • #31
kntsy said:
If the air conditioner is reversible engine but not carnot, will the entropy(total) still increase? I think YES, but college physics text says entropy(total) remain constant for reversible?

Anyone can answer this brainteaser?
 
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  • #32
brainstorm said:
I thought entropy was relative to the ultimate state of disorder in a given system with isolated inputs. So, if a system reaches thermal equilibrium at on temperature, it has reached maximum entropy because no more disgregation of heat will take place. If heat is added unevenly, entropy can decrease insofar as the heat is concentrated/aggregated within some subset(s) of the system. In that case, the heat will dissipate and eventually cause the system to reach thermal equilibrium, but this time at a higher temperature.

Is this an incorrect description/example of thermal-equilibrium progress as increasing entropy?

Yes that looks correct.
 
  • #33
Cosmossos said:
we know that when the energy drops the entropy increases

but the entropy should DECREASE AS LONG AS THE ENERGY INCREASES.
where is my mistake?

How did you come to these conclusions? Where do we know this from?
 
  • #34
brainstorm said:
I thought entropy was relative to the ultimate state of disorder in a given system with isolated inputs. So, if a system reaches thermal equilibrium at on temperature, it has reached maximum entropy because no more disgregation of heat will take place. If heat is added unevenly, entropy can decrease insofar as the heat is concentrated/aggregated within some subset(s) of the system. In that case, the heat will dissipate and eventually cause the system to reach thermal equilibrium, but this time at a higher temperature.

Is this an incorrect description/example of thermal-equilibrium progress as increasing entropy?
Entropy has meaning only in terms of the difference in entropy between two states. As heat flows into the gas, there is a positive change in entropy of the gas (and a smaller negative change in the entropy of the surroundings).

"Disorder" is not really a very accurate explanation for entropy. First of all, it is not clear what "disorder" means. Consider 2 moles of gas in equilibrium at temperature T. Then consider one mole of the same gas at temperature T + [itex]\Delta T[/itex] and the other mole at T - [itex]\Delta T[/itex]. Which of these two states has the most disorder? Why?

Second, a concept of "disorder" is misleading. Consider a mole of He gas and a mole of Argon gas each at state (P,V,T) in its own compartment insulated from their surroundings separated by a common insulated wall. Then consider the situation where the wall is removed and the gases mix. Is there a change in entropy? Do both states represent the same amount of disorder?

AM
 

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