Schwartzschild metric difficulty

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the understanding of the Schwarzschild metric in the context of general relativity, specifically addressing the behavior of an object dropped in a gravitational field. Participants explore the implications of the metric and the dynamics of falling objects, questioning the initial reasoning and calculations presented by one participant.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the implications of the Schwarzschild metric, concluding that an object dropped will not fall but remain stationary, indicating a potential error in their reasoning.
  • Another participant points out that general relativity is a kinematic theory, suggesting that the curvature of spacetime dictates the trajectories of objects rather than using classical dynamics.
  • A third participant notes that the function representing the proper time is dependent on both the radial coordinate and the time differential, indicating a more complex relationship than initially presented.
  • Links to external resources are provided by participants to aid in understanding the Schwarzschild acceleration and its derivation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the initial reasoning presented. There are competing views regarding the application of dynamics in the context of general relativity and the interpretation of the Schwarzschild metric.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the initial assumptions made by the participant regarding the application of Newtonian dynamics to a relativistic framework. There is also an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in understanding the relationship between proper time and the radial coordinate.

Thinkor
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I am trying to understand how the Schwartzschild metric works and coming to the conclusion that if I drop an object that it will not fall to the Earth but just stay there when I open my hand. Therefore, I'm confident I have made a mistake, but I don't see where it is.

Here is the metric directly from Schwartzschild's paper. This agrees with various other sources I've seen although the notation is different.

ds2 = (1 - α/R)dt2 - dR2/(1 -α/R) - R2(dθ2 + sin2θ d∅)

where α is the Schwartzschild radius, t is the time coordinate, and R is the radial coordinate. Please note that Schwarzschild uses units where c = 1.

I'm just interested in dropping a clock, so I set dθ and d∅ to zero, reducing the equation to

ds2 = A dt2 - dR2/A

where I have defined A = (1 - α/R) for brevity.

The traveler along this line element will see himself "at rest" and so ds2 will equal dτ2, where τ is the proper time. dτ will equal f dt for some function f of R that reflects slower ticking of the clock as it falls. Thus, we have

f2 dt2 = A dt2 - dR2/A

Rearranging a bit, I get

dR2/A = A dt2 - f2 dt2

Solving for dR/dt yields

dR/dt = (A2 - Af2).5

I then take the derivative to get the acceleration.

d2R/dt2 = .5 (A2 - Af2)-.5 (2A dA/dt - A 2f df/dt - f2 dA/dt))

But, dA/dt = -α/R2 dR/dt, and by hypothesis dR/dt = 0 (we are just dropping an object, whose velocity is initially 0). Therefore, we get

d2R/dt2 = .5 (A2 - Af2)-.5 (- A 2f df/dt))

Since f is a function of R, df/dt = df/dR dR/dt = 0 also initially.

But that means d2R/dt2 = 0 initially as well. So the object does not move!

What's wrong?
 
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You're using trying to use dynamics, but GR is a kinematic theory. This means that the curvature predefines trajectories that will be followed by test particles with given initial conditions and/or proper accelerations. So it is possible to find the 4-velocity of a dropped object but not the way you're attempting.

You should look this up in a textbook, or maybe start with this (very good) article in Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_geodesics
 
Thinkor said:
The traveler along this line element will see himself "at rest" and so ds2 will equal dτ2, where τ is the proper time. dτ will equal f dt for some function f of R that reflects slower ticking of the clock as it falls. Thus, we have

f2 dt2 = A dt2 - dR2/A
It might be worth noting that:

f2 = A - dR2/(dt2A)

so f is not just a function of R, but a function of R and dt.

These links show how the Schwarzschild acceleration is obtained:

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-07/6-07.htm
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-04/6-04.htm
 
Last edited:

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