Schwarzchild Radius: By definition must be dependent on distance.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of the Schwarzschild Radius, particularly its dependence on distance and the implications for escape velocity in the context of black holes. Participants explore theoretical aspects, mathematical definitions, and the implications of spacetime curvature related to this radius.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the Schwarzschild Radius is a specific value for any mass and does not depend on distance from the center of mass, suggesting that it is a fixed property of the mass itself.
  • Others argue that the escape velocity is defined in relation to the center of mass and that gravitational potential energy varies with position, raising questions about the distance at which escape speed equals the speed of light.
  • One participant mentions the mathematical expression for the Schwarzschild Radius as 2MG/c², emphasizing its role as a factor in the equations of the Schwarzschild spacetime rather than a simple radial distance.
  • Another participant highlights the complexities in measuring the radius of massive bodies due to spacetime warping, noting that the radial distance does not correspond directly to the change in the r coordinate value and must be calculated using the metric.
  • The "hoop conjecture" is introduced as a criterion for determining when an object becomes a black hole, although its applicability to non-spherically symmetric objects remains uncertain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the Schwarzschild Radius is dependent on distance, with some asserting it is a fixed property while others emphasize the role of escape velocity and gravitational potential energy. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in measuring distances in curved spacetime and the necessity of using specific metrics to accurately define radial distances. The discussion also acknowledges that the hoop conjecture is not universally applicable.

SarcasticSully
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The Schwarzschild Radius of an object is the length such that if the object is shrunk down that small, the escape velocity becomes equal to the speed of light. That being said, however, the escape velocity of any gravitational body matters where it is measured relative to the center of mass because the idea of the escape speed is that the kinetic energy plus the potential energy equals 0 and gravitational potential energy is dependent on position. So my question is what distance from the center of mass of the object does the escape speed have to be equal to the speed of light for the distance the object is contracted to to fit the criteria of the Schwarzschild Radius?
 
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Hi SarcasticSully, and welcome to PF!

Any mass has an associated specific Schwarzschild radius - this is not depending on any distance. So pick any mass you like, and calculate its Schwarzschild radius. Organize the mass into a sphere (for simplicity) and start shrinking the sphere. When the radius of the massive sphere reaches the Schwarzschild radius, the escape speed at the surface will be equal to the speed of light. When the radius of the massive sphere becomes less than the Schwarzschild radius, it will become a black hole.

See also The Schwarzschild Radius (HyperPhysics).
 
As DennisN mentioned the Schwarzschild radius is simply 2MG/c². It is a factor which shows up in the spherically symmetric vacuum solution of the Einstein field equations, aka, the Schwarzschild spacetime. That solution is an important solution so that factor is important and is given its own name. Because of the curvature of spacetime you cannot think of the Schwarzschild radius as simply representing some radial distance, it is just a factor in the equations.
 
DennisN said:
Hi SarcasticSully, and welcome to PF!

When the radius of the massive sphere reaches the Schwarzschild radius, the escape speed at the surface will be equal to the speed of light.

See also The Schwarzschild Radius (HyperPhysics).

So if I understood this correctly, that means when a mass is shrunk to its Schwarzschild radius, the escape speed is the speed of light at the surface of the object.
 
There are certain technical issues with the seemingly simple task of measuring the radius of a very massive body such as a black hole, due to the way it warps space and time. In particular, there's no guarantee that the r coordinate measures a spacelike interval (and using Schwarzschild coordinates, in particular, it turns out that in the interior region dr does NOT measure a spacelike interval, but rather a timelike one).

Even for massive bodies that are not black holes, the radial distance is NOT equal to the change in the r coordinate value, one must use the metric to calculate the former.

Fortunately, there is an easy solution. We don't measure the radius, we measure the circumference of a circle of constant radius - or equivalently, the surface area of a 2-sphere of constant radius. This is in fact the way r is defined in the Schwarzschild geometry.

Kip Thorne's famous "hoop conjecture" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Conjecture states that an object becomes a black hole when you cannot place a hoop of circumference 2 pi G M / c^2 around it.

This is currently a conjecture, it is known to work for spherically symmetric and (I think) axissymmetric objects, but it hasn't been shown to work for objects lacking these symmetries.
 

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