Searching for "Perihelium Precession Problem" Derivation in General Relativity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the "perihelium precession problem" within the framework of General Relativity. Participants explore various sources and methods for achieving a rigorous derivation, touching on theoretical and mathematical aspects of the problem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Daniel seeks a rigorous derivation of the perihelium precession problem in General Relativity.
  • Lillian Lieber's book is mentioned as providing a derivation using the Schwarzschild metric, but the definition of "rigorous" is questioned.
  • Garth suggests Weinberg's "Gravitation and Cosmology" as a reference for the derivation.
  • Another participant notes that Goldstein's "Classical Mechanics" discusses the problem but lacks detailed derivation steps.
  • Daniel inquires whether the derivation involves elliptic functions, indicating a preference for that approach.
  • George provides a link to a paper but expresses uncertainty about its quality.
  • A participant describes a method involving replacing coordinate time with proper time and adding a term to the Hamiltonian, arguing that elliptic functions are not necessary.
  • Daniel counters that elliptic functions are indeed needed for a rigorous solution, claiming to have found an exact solution.
  • Garth agrees that a rigorous justification may require elliptic functions and confirms that Weinberg uses them.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of "rigorous," with some participants suggesting that approximations may be acceptable in certain contexts.
  • Daniel asserts that in this case, "rigorous" equates to an exact solution, rejecting the use of perturbations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on what constitutes a "rigorous" derivation, with some advocating for exact solutions and others accepting approximations. The necessity of elliptic functions is also contested, indicating unresolved disagreements on the best approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights varying interpretations of rigor in mathematical derivations, the dependence on specific definitions, and the potential limitations of different approaches to the problem.

dextercioby
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Well, I'm searching for a rigorous derivation of the famous "perihelium precession problem in General Relativity".

Did anyone do it...?

Daniel.
 
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What do you mean rigorous. Lillian Lieber did it in her little book "Einstein's Theory of Relativity" by deriving the Schwartzschild metric with the usual conditions of isotropy and zero fields at infinity, and then getting the approximate potential for Mercury from that and doing the math. Is that rigorous enough for you?
 
Try Weinberg "Gravitation and Cosmology" pages 188 - 194.

Garth
 
Goldstein works this out in the section on time independent pertubation theory in "Classical Mechanics", though he doesn't give the details of how to get the Hamiltonian (which is presented without proof). See pg 510-511.

MTW's "Gravitation" doesn't give a complete derivation, it leaves it as an exercise (suggesting a few tricks and giving the correct answer) so you'll be better off with one of the other recommendations.
 
Last edited:
I don't have Weinberg's text. The question i have for you is: does this derivation use elliptic functions ? If not, it's not what I'm looking for...

Daniel.
 
It's fairly easy and straightforwards to work out that the full relativistic treatment of the Schwarzschild orbit involves only replacing coordinate time with proper time, the r coordinate with the Schwarzschild coordinate by the same name (r), and adding an extra term to the Hamiltonian, proportional to 1/r^3.

I.e. letting L be angular momentum, and E be energy, and setting G=c=1 for simplicity (geometric units), we get

Newtonian theory

[tex] (\frac{dr}{dt} )^2 = E + \frac{2M}{r} - \frac{L^2}{r^2}[/tex]
[tex] \frac{d\phi}{dt} = \frac{L}{r^2}[/tex]

Relativistic theory
[tex] ( \frac{dr}{d\tau} )^2 = (E^2 -1) + \frac{2M}{r} - \frac{L^2}{r^2} + \frac{2ML^2}{r^3}[/tex]
[tex] \frac{d\phi}{d\tau} = \frac{L}{r^2}[/tex]

The definition of energy differs between the two, but in both cases E represents the constant energy energy of an orbiting body, and L represents its constant angular momentum.

Assuming that the 1/r^3 potential term is small allows one to use pertubation methods to find the perihelion shift - this is the part of the job that Goldstein does (pg 511).

There's no real need for elliptic functions with this approach.
 
Surely there is (need for elliptic functions), as long as this problem does have an exact solution. There's no need for perturbation theory when the problem does have an exact solution. I've done some research and found it. There's no reserve upon the validity of the results presented in the attached document.

Daniel.
 

Attachments

pervect said:
It's fairly easy and straightforwards to work out that the full relativistic treatment of the Schwarzschild orbit involves only replacing coordinate time with proper time, the r coordinate with the Schwarzschild coordinate by the same name (r), and adding an extra term to the Hamiltonian, proportional to 1/r^3
.......

There's no real need for elliptic functions with this approach.
dextercioby asked for a rigorous approach, pervect I think you'll find that to justify the procedure you outlined rigorously you do need elliptic functions.

And yes dextercioby, Weinberg does use elliptic functions.

Garth
 
  • #10
Does "rigorous" mean "no approximations"? If so, Goldstein's approach won't be suitable, it assumes the pertubation Hamitonian is small.

But if you're willing to accept approximations (which is certainly apropriate for the specific case of Mercury), the intergals become simpler.
 
  • #11
Sometimes, we have to accept perturbations (approximations) as the only viable solution, but in this case rigurous= exact solution.

Daniel.
 

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