Second postulate of SR quiz question

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The discussion centers on the interpretation of the speed "c" in Einstein's second postulate of special relativity (SR). Participants express differing views on whether "c" refers to the one-way speed of light, the round-trip speed, or serves as a conversion factor between time and distance. Some argue that Einstein's original wording is ambiguous, while others emphasize the historical context and modern understanding of relativity. The conversation highlights the complexities of measuring light's speed and the assumptions involved in synchronizing clocks for one-way measurements. Ultimately, the debate reflects ongoing interpretations of foundational concepts in physics.
  • #91
PeterDonis said:
There are some caveats to this statement that I think are worth mentioning.Second, when we look at a family of accelerated observers for whom "space" is non-Euclidean, we have to be careful defining what "space" means. For example, consider the family of Langevin observers, who are all moving in circular trajectories about a common origin, with the same angular velocity ##\omega##. In the accelerated coordinates in which these observers are at rest (we use cylindrical coordinates here to make things look as simple as possible), the metric is

$$
ds^2 = - \left( 1 - \omega^2 r^2 \right) dt^2 + 2 \omega r^2 dt d\phi + dz^2 + dr^2 + r^2 d\phi^2
$$

Note that this metric is only valid for ##0 < r < 1 / \omega##; at larger values of ##r##, there are no Langevin observers (if there were, they would be moving around their circles faster than light).

If we look at a spacelike slice of constant coordinate time ##t## in this metric, we find something unexpected: it is Euclidean! The metric of such a slice is simply ##dz^2 + dr^2 + r^2 d\phi^2##, which is the metric of Euclidean 3-space in cylindrical coordinates. Why, then, is it always said that "space" is not Euclidean for such observers?
Thanks for the clarification, but this statement is a bit misleading. You cannot simply set ##\mathrm{d} t## to 0 to infer what the observer considers the geometry of his "space" (time slice). The local geometry is rather defined by a metric of a 3D submanifold, where ("infinitesimal") distances are defined via the two-way speed of light (this is most clearly explained in Landau-Lifshitz vol. 2).

So the rotating observer sends a light signal towards an infinitesimal distant point, where it is reflected and measures the time his signal needs to come back to him. This time determines the distance (modulo a factor ##c##, which I set to 1). The corresponding times for the light signal to travel forth and back is determined by the null-geodesics condition for the light ray:
$$g_{\mu \nu} \mathrm{d} q^{\mu} \mathrm{d} q^{\nu}=0.$$
Split in temporal and spatial components you get (setting ##q^0=t##)
$$g_{00} \mathrm{d} t^2+2g_{0i} \mathrm{d} t \mathrm{d} q^i + g_{ij} \mathrm{d} q^i \mathrm{d} q^j=0.$$
Latin indices run from ##1## to ##3## (i.e., sum over the spatial coordinates).

This has two solutions for ##\mathrm{d} t##, and then you define the spatial distance as
$$\mathrm{d} \ell=\frac{\mathrm{d} t_1-\mathrm{d} t_2}{2} = \sqrt{\left (g_{ij}-\frac{g_{i0} g_{j0}}{g_{00}} \right )\mathrm{d} q^i \mathrm{d} q^j}.$$
Then you get the spatial metric as
$$\mathrm{d} \ell^2=\mathrm{d} r^2 + \frac{r^2}{1-\omega^2 r^2} \mathrm{d} \varphi^2+\mathrm{d} r^2.$$
This is the metric of a non-Euclidean 3D Riemannian space (or more strictly speaking for a region of (in this case Minkowskian) spacetime, covered by these coordinates, which are restricted by ##\omega r<1##).

Of course, that's a convention, defining the geometry of the observer's 3D spacelike hypersurface, but it's the one which is (for infinitesimal distances) equivalent to the usual Einsteinian description in SR (where he, however, uses the one-way speed of light rather than the round-trip speed of light, but this is problematic for a general (non-static) metric).
 
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  • #92
bcrowell said:
My answer would be that I don't know, because the question refers to a particular formulation of an obsolete axiomatization, and I don't think anyone in the year 2015 should be memorizing that kind of historical trivia (what's postulate #1, what's postulate #2, etc.). I think it's unfortunate if people are still teaching their students SR using Einstein's postulates, because they reinforce various misconceptions, such as the belief that c has something to do with the speed of light, or that light plays some fundamental role in relativity. Since Einstein himself had a view of SR that, looking back from 2015, seems to have been in many ways hazy and incorrect, why would it be of interest to anyone other than historians of science to try to figure out exactly what he had in mind?
In that context I would also recommend reading the book "Einstein's mistakes":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393337685/?tag=pfamazon01-20
The mistakes include a mistake on a two-way clock synchronization procedure, as well as repeated mistakes in 7 (!) different derivations of ##E=mc^2##.
 
  • #93
bcrowell said:
My answer would be that I don't know, because the question refers to a particular formulation of an obsolete axiomatization, and I don't think anyone in the year 2015 should be memorizing that kind of historical trivia (what's postulate #1, what's postulate #2, etc.). I think it's unfortunate if people are still teaching their students SR using Einstein's postulates, because they reinforce various misconceptions, such as the belief that c has something to do with the speed of light, or that light plays some fundamental role in relativity. Since Einstein himself had a view of SR that, looking back from 2015, seems to have been in many ways hazy and incorrect, why would it be of interest to anyone other than historians of science to try to figure out exactly what he had in mind?

I think that in learning science, students are simultaneously learning two different things:
  1. What is the current, best theory of gravity, relativity, electromagnetism, whatever.
  2. How do people go about formulating and testing new theories.
The historical way that a theory developed is not relevant to the first, but it is certainly relevant to the second.
 
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  • #94
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  • #95
loislane said:
No, you have a vector space, metric spaces are not related to fixing an origin but with determining distances, indefinite bilinear forms cannot determine distances.

The metric of a single spacelike hypersurface, with a given point chosen as the spatial origin, is positive definite. That's the metric I'm talking about, not the metric of Minkowski spacetime as a whole.

loislane said:
again the possibility of assigning Euclidean or non-euclidean spatial relations from the choice of different curvilinear coordinates is trivial, but it doesn't say much about the underlying spaces, and it is my understanding that it cannot determine anything physical either. They are just labels.

Strictly speaking, yes, but if there are particular physical measurements that happen to match up with the coordinates in a particular way, then sloppy physicists will tend to talk about the coordinates as though they were physical observables instead of labels. :wink:
 
  • #96
vanhees71 said:
The local geometry is rather defined by a metric of a 3D submanifold

But for the case of Langevin observers, there is no single submanifold that is "shared" by all the observers. Each observer has a different one, and the same observer has different ones at different times (and they don't even define a consistent coordinate chart, since the same spacetime event can be contained in multiple such submanifolds, corresponding to different times, for the same observer). The 3D manifold you end up deriving a non-Euclidean metric for is the quotient space I spoke of; it is not a 3D submanifold of 4D Minkowski spacetime.
 
  • #97
Why is this a quotient space? I thought, that's how you generally define the local geometry of any observer in both flat (Minkowski space) and General Relativity. It's analogous to what you do for inertial observers in Minkowski space, but restricted to local (infinitesimal) neighborhoods of any point in the domain of map defined by the coordinates. That's the distance measured by light signals bouncing back and force from a mirror located at the point of interest (sometimes called "radar distance"). I thought, that's a very useful concept when setting up a (1+3)D formalism in general spacetimes. I found the discussion of electrodynamics in curved spacetime in Landau-Lifshitz using this convention very illuminating. I don't see that there is something wrong with this mathematically, it's just a rewriting of the covariant Maxwell equations in a curved (background) spacetime in a not manifestly co-variant way in the sense of a (1+3)D formalism, as one does also in usual Minkowski space in inertial frames to solve more practical problems in E&M. Is there something wrong with it physically (or even mathematically)?

EDIT: Or do you refer to the problem to define distances of finitely separated point in the case of a non-stationary metric, i.e., where the ##g_{\mu \nu}## depend on time, and you cannot define a distance measure for them?
 
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  • #98
vanhees71 said:
Why is this a quotient space? I thought, that's how you generally define the local geometry of any observer in both flat (Minkowski space) and General Relativity.

If we are just using your method to construct local coordinates around the worldline of a single Langevin observer, then yes, each "slice" of constant coordinate time is a 3D submanifold (with the non-Euclidean metric you give) of the 4D manifold covered by the coordinates. But that 4D manifold is not all of Minkowski spacetime; it's just a narrow "world tube" around the chosen worldline.

But if we try to view the non-Euclidean metric you give as the metric of a global "space" that includes all of the Langevin observers--i.e., not limited to a narrow world tube around one observer's worldline--then that "space" is a quotient space; it does not correspond to any 3D submanifold of the 4D manifold that includes the worldlines of all the Langevin observers. (Even that 4D manifold is not, strictly speaking, all of Minkowski spacetime, since it only covers the region of finite radius around the origin in which there are such observers. But that's a much larger region than the narrow world tube of a single observer's worldline.)
 
  • #99
vanhees71 said:
an important additional assumption on the structure of relativistic space-time, namely that for each inertial observer space is a Euclidean 3-dimensional affine space as in Newtonian mechanics.
I was discussing this assumption at the beginning of the thread. So you mean that the footnote that Einstein added to his first sentence in the kinematical part of his seminal 1905 paper was wrong? IOW that in SR inertial coordinates Newtonian mechanics holds good fully, not just to the first approximation?
 
  • #100
loislane said:
I was discussing this assumption at the beginning of the thread. So you mean that the footnote that Einstein added to his first sentence in the kinematical part of his seminal 1905 paper was wrong? IOW that in SR inertial coordinates Newtonian mechanics holds good fully, not just to the first approximation?

I don't see the connection between Einstein's comment and whether spacetime can be described as time + Euclidean space.

Obviously, Newton's laws don't hold exactly, because SR gives relativistic corrections. I interpret Einstein's words to mean that he's talking about a coordinate system such that Newton's laws hold, in the limit where all velocities are slow compared to the speed of light.
 
  • #101
stevendaryl said:
I don't see the connection between Einstein's comment and whether spacetime can be described as time + Euclidean space.
The Newtonian case is time+Euclidean space, SR according to Einstein correction is that only to first order.
Obviously, Newton's laws don't hold exactly, because SR gives relativistic corrections. I interpret Einstein's words to mean that he's talking about a coordinate system such that Newton's laws hold, in the limit where all velocities are slow compared to the speed of light.
Yes, that is what I understand the footnote to mean. But that limit is hard to see in the second postulate, where not all speeds are slow compared to c since it deals with c in inertial coordinates so it would seem here Newtonian mechanics must hold good exactly.
 
  • #102
We are talking about Minkowski space. Here, for any inertial observer, space is Euclidean. I still don't understand this confusion.
 
  • #103
vanhees71 said:
We are talking about Minkowski space. Here, for any inertial observer, space is Euclidean. I still don't understand this confusion.
A Rindler observer is inertial(it is in inertial motion with respect to an observer at rest in Minkowski coordinates), but for him space is not euclidean.
 
  • #104
loislane said:
A Rindler observer is inertial(it is in inertial motion with respect to an observer at rest in Minkowski coordinates), but for him space is not euclidean.

A Rindler observer is the best-studied example of a NONinertial observer. So I think that what you're saying is completely wrong.

Roughly speaking, a frame, or coordinate system, is inertial if an object at rest relative to it has zero proper acceleration. Proper acceleration is measurable using an accelerometer.
 
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  • #105
loislane said:
A Rindler observer is inertial(it is in inertial motion with respect to an observer at rest in Minkowski coordinates), but for him space is not euclidean.
As stressed by stevendaryl in the posting before, a rindler observer is noninertial, because he is accelerated relative to the class of inertial frames. It's the most simple example of a nonrotating accelerated (with constant proper acceleration) observer. He is non-rotating, because the infinitesimal boosts are in a fixed direction. You can define it as the sequence of rest frames of a particle in a globally homogeneous electric field. The solution for the equation of motion for the four-velocity
$$\frac{\mathrm{d} u^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau}=\frac{q}{m} F^{\mu \nu} u_{\nu}$$
can be written as
$$u(\tau)=\exp(\frac{q \tau}{m} \hat{F}) u(\tau=0).$$
For a homogeneous electric field you have ##F^{jk}=0## for ##j,k \in \{1,2,3\}## and ##F^{j0}=-F^{0f}=E^j=\text{const}##, which discribes a boost in a fixed direction ##\vec{n}=\vec{E}/|\vec{E}|##. The corresponding rapidity is growing with time, according to ##y(\tau)=q E \tau/m##.

This already shows that this is a pretty unphysical case, and it's only apparently simple. If you use it in other than kinematical context, you can have a lot of trouble with it. E.g., if you study the radiation of a so accelerated point charge, you run into trouble with the usual Lienart-Wiechert potentials. For that example and how the trouble is resolved, see

J. Franklin, D. J. Griffiths, The fields of a charged particle in hyperbolic motion, Am. J. Phys. 82, 755 (2014); erratum Am. J. Phys. 83, 278 (2015)
http://dx.doi.org/10.1119/1.4875195
http://dx.doi.org/10.1119/1.4906577
http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.7729
 
  • #106
vanhees71 said:
As stressed by stevendaryl in the posting before, a rindler observer is noninertial, because he is accelerated relative to the class of inertial frames.
In the wikipedia page on rindler coordinates it can be read that the Rindler observers are in inertial motion with respect to Minkowskian observers at rest. On the other hand they are stationary in relation to the rest of Rindler observers.
It's the most simple example of a nonrotating accelerated (with constant proper acceleration) observer. He is non-rotating, because the infinitesimal boosts are in a fixed direction.
How do you fix the direction? A composition of boosts always includes pure rotations. Thomas rotation is an example of this.
 
  • #107
A composition of boosts in different directions is equivalent to another pure boost followed by a rotation (or a rotation followed by a pure boost), the socalled Wigner rotation. See my treatment of the Thomas precession in my (still unfinished) SRT FAQ article:

http://fias.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/srt.pdf

I don't understand, why an observer that is accelerated relative to an inertial reference frame (and thus relative to any inertial reference frame) should be inertial. I can't find such a statement in the Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#The_Rindler_observers

In section

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#Minkowski_observers

you find a somewhat overcomplicated derivation that "free falling observers" are inertial observers, but that's clear, because we are in Minkowski space, where no gravitation is present. In other words the time-like geodesic congruences define not only local but global inertial frames, namely the Minkowski frames. An observer at rest relative to a Minkowskian reference frame is of course inertial. In the more general case with a real gravitational field present, the free-falling observers are locally inertial but not globally. In Minkowski space the latter are of course globally inertial.
 
  • #108
loislane said:
In the wikipedia page on rindler coordinates it can be read that the Rindler observers are in inertial motion with respect to Minkowskian observers at rest. On the other hand they are stationary in relation to the rest of Rindler observers.

I think you got the exactly wrong impression from that sentence. In section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#Minkowski_observers, the article is talking about Minkowski observers (that is, inertial observers) as viewed by Rindler coordinates. It's not talking about Rindler observers.

Definitely, a Rindler observer is not inertial.
 
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  • #109
loislane said:
A Rindler observer is inertial(it is in inertial motion with respect to an observer at rest in Minkowski coordinates), but for him space is not euclidean.
As was mentioned above, a Rindler observer is not inertial. An accelerometer attached to a Rindler observer reads non zero.
 
  • #110
That is going to depend on the specific definition of inertial and noninertial frames, I get the impression that the concept of frames is at the least problematic in physics(I just spotted a thread discussing the validity of the concept of frame), so I'm not going to get involved in a semantics debate.

I'll simply add that proper acceleration is supposed to be coordinate invariant so its presence or absence cannot depend on labels. And no you cannot measure acceleration in a label.
 
  • #111
loislane said:
A Rindler observer is inertial(it is in inertial motion with respect to an observer at rest in Minkowski coordinates), but for him space is not euclidean.

Both halves of this statement are incorrect. As others have pointed out, a Rindler observer is accelerated, not inertial. But also, spacelike slices of constant Rindler coordinate time are Euclidean. This is the simplest counterexample to the common (incorrect) belief that space must always be non-Euclidean for accelerated observers.
 
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  • #112
loislane said:
I'll simply add that proper acceleration is supposed to be coordinate invariant so its presence or absence cannot depend on labels.

It doesn't. The nonzero proper acceleration of a Rindler observer is indeed an invariant. Nobody is disputing that.
 
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  • #113
vanhees71 said:
A composition of boosts in different directions is equivalent to another pure boost followed by a rotation (or a rotation followed by a pure boost), the socalled Wigner rotation. See my treatment of the Thomas precession in my (still unfinished) SRT FAQ article:
Since I'm considering only the identity component of Lorentz transformations(the proper orthochronous Lorentz transformations that are continuous and the ones usually considered physical) I don't consider boosts in the same direction as different boosts, it's just one boost.
 
  • #114
loislane said:
That is going to depend on the specific definition of inertial and noninertial frames,
No, it doesn't. An inertial observer is one that has 0 proper acceleration. As you mention, that is an invariant fact which is unaffected by the choice of reference frame. An inertial observer is inertial regardless of whether or not you are using an inertial frame to describe him.
 
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  • #115
loislane said:
I'll simply add that proper acceleration is supposed to be coordinate invariant so its presence or absence cannot depend on labels. And no you cannot measure acceleration in a label.

I'm not sure what the last sentence means, but there is a coordinate-independent notion of a particle traveling inertially, and that is that it shows nonzero proper acceleration, according to an accelerometer. A simple mechanical accelerometer might be a box in the shape of a cube, with 6 identical springs attached to the center of each face. Where the 6 springs meet, there is a mass. If all 6 springs are the same length, then the box has zero proper acceleration. If some of the springs are stretched more than others, then the box has nonzero proper acceleration.
 
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  • #116
I have no problem withdrawing my claim that Rindler is an inertial observer, the basic reason is that the Rindler coordinates don't cover the whole spacetime, which is a condition for an inertial observer. I have serious doubts that an observational reference frame is a physical object one can attach an accelerometer to, I think it is something more abstract than that.
 
  • #117
loislane said:
I have serious doubts that an observational reference frame is a physical object one can attach an accelerometer to, I think it is something more abstract than that.
I agree with that. This is a distinction between a frame (abstract mathematical object) and an observer (concrete physical object). An inertial reference frame is not synonymous with an inertial observer.

There is, of course, a standard convention for associating a particular inertial frame to a given inertial observer, so sometimes the distinction becomes blurred in discussions.
 
  • #118
loislane said:
I have no problem withdrawing my claim that Rindler is an inertial observer, the basic reason is that the Rindler coordinates don't cover the whole spacetime, which is a condition for an inertial observer.

You're mixing up observers and coordinates. An observer is inertial if he has zero proper acceleration; that is a direct physical observable that can be measured with an accelerometer. A Rindler observer is not inertial because he has nonzero proper acceleration; his accelerometer does not read zero. That's true regardless of what coordinates you are using to describe the Rindler observer's motion.
 
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  • #119
I think this is the main difference between mathematicians, who are very much emphasizing the geometric aspects of spacetime. This has some justification since modern physics hinges on geometric concepts in a very general sense, discovered by Riemann and Klein in the 19th century, namely the importance of symmetries (of spacetime and even abstract "flavor spaces" in QFT). This point of view in physics was one of the most important and usually overlooked breakthroughs in Einstein's paper on SR of 1905, where the first sentence can be read as a research program going on until today, namely to figure out the basic symmetries of the physical laws.

However, one can also overemphasize the geometrical aspects and forget that besides the elegant formulations in terms of geometric objects (differentiable manifolds, affine Euclidean and pseudo-Euclidean, Riemann- and pseudo-Riemann, varous fiber bundles,...) we still do physics, and physics is about what you can really observe (in a very broad sense, from naive looking at things with our senses to high-precision quantitative measurements with very tricky technology). Usually we don't realize it anymore, but any measurement (more or less tacitly) uses and introduces a reference frame. This can be simply the edges of our laboratory or the geometric setup of a particle detector or some fancy optical device (like a Michelson-Morley interferometer) etc. etc. A reference frame is somehow defined by real physical objects, be it a human being with his senses looking at a phenomenon or any fancy measurement device invented to discover accurate quantitative facts about nature that are not directly "detectable" by our senses.Now, in a gedanken experiment a Rindler observer can be seen as sitting in a rocket that is accelerated with constant proper acceleration. Now to cover some finite part of Minkowski space you need a whole family of such (pointlike) observers. This family trajectories is defined by a real spatial parameter ##\xi## and temporal parameter ##\tau## according to
$$t=\xi \sinh \tau, \quad x=\xi \cosh \tau.$$
The four-velocity of each observer (labeled by the parameter ##\xi##, with ##\tau## the parameter of the trajectory) is given by
$$(u^0,u^1)=\frac{1}{\sqrt{\partial_{\tau} t^2-\partial_{\tau} x^2}}(\partial_{\tau} t,\partial_{\tau} x)=(\cosh \tau,\sinh \tau).$$
As you see, each observer in the family is clearly accelerated, because ##u^1## is not constant. The proper acceleration for each observer is
$$\alpha(\xi)=\frac{\mathrm{d} u^1}{\mathrm{d} t}=\frac{\mathrm{d} u^1}{\mathrm{d} \tau} \left (\frac{\mathrm{d} t}{\mathrm{d} \tau} \right)^{-1}=\frac{1}{\xi}.$$

The Minkowski pseudometric reads in the new local coordinates ##(\tau,\xi)##
$$\mathrm{d} s^2=\mathrm{d}t^2-\mathrm{d} x^2=(\mathrm{d} \tau \partial_{\tau} t+\mathrm{d}\xi \partial_{\xi} t)^2-(\mathrm{d} \tau \partial_{\tau} x+\mathrm{d} \xi \partial_{\xi} x)^2=\xi^2 \mathrm{d} \tau^2-\mathrm{d} \xi^2.$$
Obviously at ##\xi=0## we have a coordinate singularity. Since for any ##\xi>0## we have
$$\frac{t}{x}=\tanh \tau$$
for ##\xi \rightarrow 0## we have ##\tau \rightarrow \pm \infty## and thus the limit ##\xi \rightarrow 0^+## defines the Rindler wedge ##x=\pm t>0##, which is an event horizon for the Rindler map of the so defined part of the Minkowski space. For a picture, see the Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#Relation_to_Cartesian_chart

There you clearly see, that each Rindler observer is in hyperbolic motion with his proper acceleration ##1/\xi## and thus accelerated.Note that in the Wikipedia article they have a (to may taste a bit confusing) convention our ##(\tau,\xi)## are their ##(t,x)## and our ##(t,x)## are their ##(T,X)##. We have also set conveniently their ##g=1## and used the west-coast instead of the east-coast convention.

The Christoffel symbols are not vanishing, which is another hint that the Rindler coordinates are not locally inertial:
$$\Gamma^0_{01}=\Gamma^{0}_{10}=1/\xi, \quad \Gamma^{1}_{00}=\xi,$$
and all other Christoffel symbols are vanishing.

The geodesics of the spacetime are no straight lines wrt. the Rindler frame, and thus again we see that the Rindler frame is not inertial. Of course, the geodesics are straight lines wrt. any inertial frame.
 
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  • #120
I think the last paragraph can be misleading. The geodesics of a space-time depend only on the space-time and they are what they happen to be, for example the geodesics of Minkowski space-time are stright lines (in the usual sense), and that's that. They are not geodesics with respect to one frame and non-geodesics wrt another.
 

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