Shiba dog's DNA found to be most similar to the Wolf but....

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In summary: It was not an estimated prediction of distribution. It was only the result of their findings. There was no extrapolation based on the data. What I would like to know is how many of each breed was used. One from each seems meaningless, especially since the top 4 are so...
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Pleonasm
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Its behavior is not wolflike at all... How is this compatible with the DNA structure which is extremely wolf-like? Even Akita and Alaskan malamutes were less wolfy, even though they were in the top 4 - 1. Shiba 2. Chow Chow 3. Akita 4. Alaskan malamute

A couple of points where Shibas are polar opposite to wolfs:

Cleanliness - Shibas are very cat-like in their self grooming and hate to get dirty (please explain how this is possible if the breed is the closest to nature)

Body language and behavior: Shiba inus bark like any other small dog, and don't exhibit wolf-like behavior like growls and howls.
 
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  • #2
Got any references for those statements?
 
  • #4
I have an alaskan malamute and have visited a pack of mals grown up in the woods. Good luck differentiating their behavior from wolfs. They howled in pairs and behaved very wolfy.
While Shiba Inu on the one hand is very reserved to strangers and dog aggressive, its language is not that of a wolf at all..
 
  • #5
Just because they have DNA that is the most similar to wolves does not necessarily mean that they should behave more like wolves than other breeds. The difference in the DNA of shibas and the DNA of other breeds is probably far closer than that of shibas and wolves. In addition, relatively small changes in DNA can lead to large differences in behaviors. Something as small as a difference in a few genes can, for example, cause different amounts of hormones to be produced, which can lead to very different behavior in an animal compared to others of its breed, despite the similarity in their DNA.
 
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  • #6
Drakkith said:
Just because they have DNA that is the most similar to wolves does not necessarily mean that they should behave more like wolves than other breeds. The difference in the DNA of shibas and the DNA of other breeds is probably far closer than that of shibas and wolves. In addition, relatively small changes in DNA can lead to large differences in behaviors. Something as small as a difference in a few genes can, for example, cause different amounts of hormones to be produced, which can lead to very different behavior in an animal compared to others of its breed, despite the similarity in their DNA.

The DNA graph suggests that the difference between wolf-like breeds and the rest are huge. Could it be that bone structures are the ones making the difference, thus having nothing to do with behavior? I thought that all dogs had 99.9% DNA in common with wolfes. This study makes no sense...
 
  • #7
Pleonasm said:
This study makes no sense...
This is the study:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8550313_Genetic_structure_of_the_purebred_domestic_domestic_dog
Have you read it?
 
  • #8
Pleonasm said:
The DNA graph suggests that the difference between wolf-like breeds and the rest are huge.

The graph only shows the estimated proportion of each breeds membership in each cluster. You cannot directly determine how similar any of them are to each other from this graph.

Pleonasm said:
I thought that all dogs had 99.9% DNA in common with wolfes.

It's certainly possible. But humans are something like 95% similar to chimps in our DNA, yet we have substantial differences. It just goes to show that even a very small difference in DNA can lead to large changes in appearance and behavior. Consider that if you change 1% of the letters of words in a novel, you change something like one-quarter of all its sentences and an even greater proportion of all paragraphs. A 1% difference in DNA means that a very large number of genes that build proteins or control those genes have changed.
 
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  • #9
Drakkith said:
The graph only shows the estimated proportion of each breeds membership in each cluster. You cannot directly determine how similar any of them are to each other from this graph.
QUOTE]

Not true. The graph showed the result of the sample used. It is stated that it is not however necessarily true of every individual dog. The trend would likely be the same with a bigger pool.
 
  • #10
Pleonasm said:
Not true. The graph showed the result of the sample used. It is stated that it is not however necessarily true of every individual dog. The trend would likely be the same with a bigger pool.

Sorry, I'm not seeing how that contradicts what I said. Can you elaborate?
 
  • #11
Drakkith said:
Sorry, I'm not seeing how that contradicts what I said. Can you elaborate?

It was not an estimated prediction of distribution. It was only the result of their findings. There was no extrapolation based on the data. What I would like to know is how many of each breed was used. One from each seems meaningless, especially since the top 4 are so close.
 
  • #12
@Pleonasm please, read the study the graph is sourced from. It should answer most of the questions you're asking.
 
  • #13
Bandersnatch said:
@Pleonasm please, read the study the graph is sourced from. It should answer most of the questions you're asking.

Do you have a direct link?
 
  • #14
Pleonasm said:
Do you have a direct link?
I provided it in post #7.
 
  • #15
Bandersnatch said:
I provided it in post #7.

Okey. I did not get a justification for how the Shiba breed is the most wolf-like breed concidering the points I raised. It states that the Nordic breeds Alaskan Malamute and Siberian Husky are the closest.. Even though the Shiba and Akita breeds topped their own list. There was no reference to the shiba inu in particular.
 
  • #16
Pleonasm said:
Okey. I did not get a justification for how the Shiba breed is the most wolf-like breed concidering the points I raised. It states that the Nordic breeds Alaskan Malamute and Siberian Husky are the closest..

That's not what the article says. It just uses those two breeds as an example of ones that phenotypically resemble wolves. The cluster that most closely matches wolves contains those two breeds as well as others, including shibas. Looking at the figures provided in the article Bandersnatch linked, it is impossible to tell which of the three breeds matching wolves the closest (Shiba, Chow Chow, and Akita) are the closest, so I cannot provide any answers as to how they came to the conclusions reached in the article you linked in your OP.
 
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  • #17
@Pleonasm - I think you may be making up stuff to match some belief set you have about your dog. If true, I'm closing the thread. The ball is in your court. Please provide a detailed scientific report that shows your suggested interpretations, by the original researchers who are cited, I am guessing, by writer of the popular magazine article. Not a picto-histogram of some unknown and pretty much undescribed dataset. If you are not sure how to do that, please ask.

Thanks.
 
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  • #18
Drakkith said:
That's not what the article says. It just uses those two breeds as an example of ones that phenotypically resemble wolves. The cluster that most closely matches wolves contains those two breeds as well as others, including shibas. Looking at the figures provided in the article Bandersnatch linked, it is impossible to tell which of the three breeds matching wolves the closest (Shiba, Chow Chow, and Akita) are the closest, so I cannot provide any answers as to how they came to the conclusions reached in the article you linked in your OP.

Why do you selective paraphrase their claims? That's not ALL they wrote... "And shows the closest genetic relationship to the Wolf'" This despite the fact that Malamutes were forth on the list and Siberian Husky didn't even make the top 5. The difference between malamute and SH wolfiness was as great as the difference between Shiba and Malamute. The phenotypical statement is also garbage. Alaskan malamutes have rectangular muzzles, compared to the longer narrow wolf muzzle, and completely different bodies than wolfes. And curled tails... Siberian Huskies are closer phenotypically but way lower on the graph. Still, Tamaskan dog is much more similar phenotypically, just to name one.
 
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  • #20
I have not read the Science study in detail, but a well known error in phylogenetic reconstructions such as the ones the researchers performed is a phenonemon called long branch attraction, in which two groups that are distantly related to the main taxa under study but also distantly related to each other are erroneously grouped together.
 
  • #21
Pleonasm said:
Why do you selective paraphrase their claims? That's not ALL they wrote... "And shows the closest genetic relationship to the Wolf'"

To quote the article:

This cluster includes Nordic breeds that phenotypically resemble the wolf, such as the Alaskan Malamute and Siberian Husky, and shows the closest genetic relationship to the wolf, which is the direct ancestor of domestic dogs.

They are talking about the cluster. The malamute and husky are just used as examples of breeds that resemble wolves.

Pleonasm said:
Anybody asserting that this dog breed (Alaskan Malamute) is one of the phenotypically closest breeds to the Wolf, needs to get his eyes checked.

https://www.google.se/search?q=alas..._AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=512#imgrc=EooljKTqmncImM:

Then I need to get my eyes checked, because it looks very much like a wolf. Far more than most other dog breeds.
 
  • #22
Drakkith said:
To quote the article:
They are talking about the cluster. The malamute and husky are just used as examples of breeds that resemble wolves.
Then I need to get my eyes checked, because it looks very much like a wolf. Far more than most other dog breeds.

It is anatomically distinct from the wolf.
 
  • #24
@Pleonasm you would agree, I think, that the Malamute looks more similar to the grey wolf than e.g. the Bulldog does. Or Sighthound. Or Chihuahua. And if you do, then what are you arguing about?
 
  • #25
Bandersnatch said:
@Pleonasm you would agree, I think, that the Malamute looks more similar to the grey wolf than e.g. the Bulldog does. Or Sighthound. Or Chihuahua. And if you do, then what are you arguing about?

That it's one of the closest. The original german shepherd with proper backs had a body much more resemblant of the grey wolf. And the german shepherd is at the bottom of the graph.
 
  • #26
Pleonasm said:
That it's one of the closest. The original german shepherd with proper backs had a body much more similar to the grey wolf. And the german shepherd is at the bottom of the graph.
That might be so. But the graph doesn't tell you anything about phenotypical similarities.
The study uses frequencies of some microsatellite alleles - the bits of the DNA that don't do anything in terms of phenotypes - to determine which breed is genetically the closest related to the grey wolf. If a breed is at the top of the graph, marked as having much of the wolf-like genetic makeup, it merely means that it is directly related to the wolf. Not that it must look or behave like one.
Directly related means that this breed was derived directly from wolves, and not from some other, intermediate breeds. The more intermediate breeds are there in the ancestry of a given breed, the more genetically distant it is from the grey wolf.

One can imagine breeding the wolf to look like a Bulldog*, then breeding the Bulldog to look like a Chihuahua, then breeding the Chihuahua to look like a wolf again. It would have a wolf-like phenotype, but an analysis of microsatellite allele frequency would reveal that the end product is actually a more distant relative of the wolf than either of the intermediaries (*this whole example does not reflect real breeding history).
 
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  • #27
Bandersnatch said:
That might be so. But the graph doesn't tell you anything about phenotypical similarities.
The study uses frequencies of some microsatellite alleles - the bits of the DNA that don't do anything in terms of phenotypes - to determine which breed is genetically the closest related to the grey wolf. If a breed is at the top of the graph, marked as having much of the wolf-like genetic makeup, it merely means that it is directly related to the wolf. Not that it must look or behave like one.
Directly related means that this breed was derived directly from wolves, and not from some other, intermediate breeds. The more intermediate breeds are there in the ancestry of a given breed, the more genetically distant it is from the grey wolf.

One can imagine breeding the wolf to look like a Bulldog*, then breeding the Bulldog to look like a Chihuahua, then breeding the Chihuahua to look like a wolf again. It would have a wolf-like phenotype, but an analysis of microsatellite allele frequency would reveal that the end product is actually a more distant relative of the wolf than either of the intermediaries (*this whole example does not reflect real breeding history).

I was not the one making the phenotypical claim tieing it with DNA overlap, the researchers were... I can agree that of the northern breeds, the Shiba and Siberian Husky are resemblant phenotypically, but not the Malamute.. or the Chow Chow for that matter.. The Alaskan Malamute looks like a grey wolf on steroids. Their claim of phenotypical similarity somehow connected with wolf-like DNA structure is easily refuted by the German Shepherd dog.
 
  • #28
Pleonasm said:
I was not the one making the phenotypical claim tieing it with DNA overlap, the researchers were... I can agree that of the northern breeds, the Shiba and Siberian Husky are resemblant phenotypically, but not the Malamute.. or the Chow Chow for that matter.. The Alaskan Malamute looks like a grey wolf on steroids. Their claim of phenotypical similarity somehow connected with wolf-like DNA structure is easily refuted by the German Shepherd dog.

They made no such claim. They merely said that the cluster includes nordic breeds that phenotypically resembles wolves. They did not say that they were phenotypically similar to wolves because of how closely related they were.
 
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  • #29
Bandersnatch said:
That might be so. But the graph doesn't tell you anything about phenotypical similarities.
The study uses frequencies of some microsatellite alleles - the bits of the DNA that don't do anything in terms of phenotypes - to determine which breed is genetically the closest related to the grey wolf. If a breed is at the top of the graph, marked as having much of the wolf-like genetic makeup, it merely means that it is directly related to the wolf. Not that it must look or behave like one.
Directly related means that this breed was derived directly from wolves, and not from some other, intermediate breeds. The more intermediate breeds are there in the ancestry of a given breed, the more genetically distant it is from the grey wolf.

One can imagine breeding the wolf to look like a Bulldog*, then breeding the Bulldog to look like a Chihuahua, then breeding the Chihuahua to look like a wolf again. It would have a wolf-like phenotype, but an analysis of microsatellite allele frequency would reveal that the end product is actually a more distant relative of the wolf than either of the intermediaries (*this whole example does not reflect real breeding history).

As far as I know, every dog breed has an ancestor that was mutated from the wolf. No dog breed is a direct descendent of the wolf. This distinction you speak of does not exist. Other studies which I am glad to dig up for you, claimed that the northern breeds were not more similar to the Wolf than a mere chihuaha. That's why this study confuses me.
 
  • #30
Drakkith said:
They made no such claim. They merely said that the cluster includes nordic breeds that phenotypically resembles wolves. They did not say that they were phenotypically similar to wolves because of how closely related they were.

They insinuate that it is correlated, when it can just as well be coincidental. The fact that the malamute anatomy is much more robust than the wolf, while the working line German Shepherds body is a virtual copy, yet one is wolf-like DNA- wise and the other (GSD) is bottom of the of the list.. .. , puts a nail in the coffin to that "suggestion"
 
  • #31
Pleonasm said:
I was not the one making the phenotypical claim tieing it with DNA overlap, the researchers were...
But they haven't done any such thing!
You're talking about this fragment again, I presume:
This cluster includes Nordic breeds that phenotypically resemble the wolf, such as the Alaskan Malamute and Siberian Husky, and shows the closest genetic relationship to the wolf, which is the direct ancestor of domestic dogs.

What they're saying is this:
Say, we've got this study that tells us which breeds are the closest relatives of the grey wolf (hence, of the first domesticated dogs). Can we make a guess which breeds are the most likely candidates for the closest resemblance of the genetic makeup of the first domesticated dogs?
Let's take the closest relatives of the wolf (the wolf-like cluster) and pick all the breeds that also look the most like the wolf. This group includes the e.g. the Malamute and the Husky, but not the Chow Chow, nor the German Shepherd.

Pleonasm said:
As far as I know, every dog breed has an ancestor that was mutated from the wolf. No dog breed is a direct descendent of the wolf. This distinction you speak of does not exist. Other studies which I am glad to dig up for you, claimed that the northern breeds were not more similar to the Wolf than a mere chihuaha. That's why this study confuses me.
Fair enough, not 'directly'. I should have kept to 'closest relative'. How close is the point of the study. Like this graph shows:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459646/
dds32301.jpg

I'm not sure what other studies you have that contradict this, but why not show them.
 

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  • #32
Pleonasm said:
They insinuate that it is correlated

I don't agree. I think it was simply an offhand comment.

Pleonasm said:
The fact that the malamute anatomy is much robust than the Wolf, while the working line German Shepherds body is a virtual copy, yet one is wolf-like DNA- wise and the other (GSD) is bottom of the of the list.. .. , puts a nail in the coffin to that "suggestion"

Not true. The genes controlling body shape, size, color, etc are only a tiny proportion of all genes. These can be manipulated to make a breed look like a wolf while the rest of its genes grow further and further from those of its ancestor.
 
  • #33
Bandersnatch said:
I'm not sure what other studies you have that contradict this, but why not show them.

"Purebred Alaskan Malamutes and Siberian Huskies are not wolves, or part-wolves, were not bred from wolves, and these breeds were not developed by breeding to wolves anytime recently (that is a separate animal called a http://www.wayeh.com/aboutsleddogs/wolves.htm#wolfdog). Based on studies by Dr. Robert Wayne at UC Berkeley, sled dogs are no more closely related to wolves than Chihuahuas."
 
  • #34
Here's more:

Q&A with Dona Miller, Research Associate http://www.tigerden.com/Wolf-park/Hybrid2.html12/97

Q: Is it true that dogs are all equally related to wolves per genetic tests, that the Siberian is no more related than the Fox Terrier?

A: This is true. All dogs are "equally related". It is believed that domestication of all breeds happened during the same era. However, depending on what humans needed from their animals, they selectively breed for very different traits.
 
  • #35
Please explain then how this discussed DNA study paints a completely different picture...
 
<h2>1. What is the significance of a Shiba dog's DNA being similar to a wolf's?</h2><p>The similarity in DNA between Shiba dogs and wolves suggests that they share a common ancestor and are closely related. This information can help us better understand the evolutionary history and behavior of Shiba dogs.</p><h2>2. How does this affect the behavior of Shiba dogs?</h2><p>The genetic similarity between Shiba dogs and wolves may explain some of their similar behaviors, such as their independent and territorial nature. However, it is important to note that behavior is also influenced by environmental and social factors.</p><h2>3. Are there any health implications of this genetic similarity?</h2><p>There is no evidence to suggest that the genetic similarity between Shiba dogs and wolves has any negative health implications for Shiba dogs. In fact, it may even have some positive effects, such as increased genetic diversity.</p><h2>4. How does this compare to other dog breeds?</h2><p>While Shiba dogs share a high genetic similarity with wolves, they are not the only dog breed to do so. Other breeds, such as the Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamute, also have a close genetic relationship with wolves.</p><h2>5. Does this mean Shiba dogs are part wolf?</h2><p>No, Shiba dogs are not part wolf. While they share a common ancestor and have a high genetic similarity, they are still considered a separate and distinct breed from wolves.</p>

1. What is the significance of a Shiba dog's DNA being similar to a wolf's?

The similarity in DNA between Shiba dogs and wolves suggests that they share a common ancestor and are closely related. This information can help us better understand the evolutionary history and behavior of Shiba dogs.

2. How does this affect the behavior of Shiba dogs?

The genetic similarity between Shiba dogs and wolves may explain some of their similar behaviors, such as their independent and territorial nature. However, it is important to note that behavior is also influenced by environmental and social factors.

3. Are there any health implications of this genetic similarity?

There is no evidence to suggest that the genetic similarity between Shiba dogs and wolves has any negative health implications for Shiba dogs. In fact, it may even have some positive effects, such as increased genetic diversity.

4. How does this compare to other dog breeds?

While Shiba dogs share a high genetic similarity with wolves, they are not the only dog breed to do so. Other breeds, such as the Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamute, also have a close genetic relationship with wolves.

5. Does this mean Shiba dogs are part wolf?

No, Shiba dogs are not part wolf. While they share a common ancestor and have a high genetic similarity, they are still considered a separate and distinct breed from wolves.

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