- #151
Zero
The 'median' is government maintaining religious neutrality, while people are allowed to have whatever private beliefs they like.
Should the Pledge of Allegiance Include Under God?
- Context: News
- Thread starter Nicool003
- Start date
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Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the inclusion of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, examining its implications for inclusivity, tradition, and the separation of church and state. Participants explore historical context, personal experiences, and the impact of the pledge on various groups, including religious and non-religious individuals.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Conceptual clarification
- Meta-discussion
Main Points Raised
- Some participants express strong emotional attachment to the Pledge as it currently stands, arguing that it has significant meaning and tradition for many, particularly in schools.
- Others criticize the Pledge as indoctrination, questioning the appropriateness of teaching it to children who may not understand its meaning.
- Several participants highlight that the phrase "under God" was added in the 1950s, suggesting it is a relic of a specific historical context that may not be relevant today.
- Concerns are raised about the exclusion of non-Christian beliefs, with some arguing that references to God can alienate those who do not share that belief.
- Some participants advocate for a more inclusive Pledge that reflects the diversity of American beliefs, suggesting that removing "under God" would promote unity rather than division.
- Counterarguments emphasize the majority's right to maintain the Pledge as it is, questioning whether a small minority should influence a tradition that many support.
- There is a discussion about the nature of atheism and whether it constitutes a minority that should be accommodated in national symbols.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge, with strong feelings on both sides about tradition versus inclusivity.
Contextual Notes
Some participants reference historical facts about the Pledge's origins and changes, while others express personal anecdotes about their experiences with the Pledge in educational settings. There are unresolved questions about the implications of changing the Pledge and the definitions of belief systems involved.
Who May Find This Useful
This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring topics related to patriotism, religious freedom, educational practices, and the intersection of government and personal beliefs.
- #152
kat
- 42
- 0
Maybe you should explain what "private beliefs" look like to you, just to be on the same page, if you know what I mean?
- #153
Zero
Originally posted by kat
Maybe you should explain what "private beliefs" look like to you, just to be on the same page, if you know what I mean?
Everywhere in America, there are churches...you may have noticed them? In these churches, people can privately, with their own time and money, worship whatever, and nearly however, they wish to. They can wear religious symbols in public, there is no government official telling you different. When children are in school, there is nothing telling them that they cannot meet on their time, like lunchtime or before school, to join together in worship.
The only thing that is banned is the government telling you to worship, or how to worship. When the government, or its representatives, is acting in an official manner, religion is off limits, pro and con.
- #154
BoulderHead
Kat,
Does this mean that you would have resisted the insertion of those words into the pledge back in the day it was done?
Think of the shock those poor atheist children may have felt following the insertion of those words into the pledge!
Just as atheists can refrain from saying the words in the current pledge, the religious could also quickly mutter them without missing a beat during the pledge if the words are removed. Now, they might end up needing to mutter those words silently depending on how ‘hard ass’ enforcement was…
- #155
kat
- 42
- 0
Boulder, I really can't answer that question, I'm not sure how I would have felt or thought about it. My connection with the pledge is on a more emotinal basis, it's one of those "rituals" that I relate to certain experiences in my life. Waiting on the tarmac for my father to return from vietnam probably being the biggest, sometimes the pledge brings tears to my eyes..not because of what it means neccesarily but what it relates to in my memories. So, keeping that in mind...I won't change the way I say it, but I don't feel that others need to tow "my line" either.
On the other hand, to be honest, the concept of pledging to a flag disturbs me, God or no. The whole entrance of the pledge into public schooling, it's intent and the intent behind the 3 changes made are just to...I can't think of the word I'm looking for but I'll settle for "propaganda" for me to be able to say that without the emotional connections I hold..I would be for any pledge at all. In the religious aspect, I don't think the state should enforce children to use religious speak of any sort, nor do I think they should prevent any child from using religuous speak if they so choose because being an open society means sometimes..you have to put up with what other people are saying or doing..even if you disagree.
On the other hand, to be honest, the concept of pledging to a flag disturbs me, God or no. The whole entrance of the pledge into public schooling, it's intent and the intent behind the 3 changes made are just to...I can't think of the word I'm looking for but I'll settle for "propaganda" for me to be able to say that without the emotional connections I hold..I would be for any pledge at all. In the religious aspect, I don't think the state should enforce children to use religious speak of any sort, nor do I think they should prevent any child from using religuous speak if they so choose because being an open society means sometimes..you have to put up with what other people are saying or doing..even if you disagree.
- #156
Zero
Well, I'm not going for it...tell those kids to shut up and not be disruptive in the class.
- #157
kat
- 42
- 0
If you use the word "shut up" in my kids class you and I will be meeting in the principal or super's office.
- #158
Dissident Dan
- 236
- 1
I agree with kat on this one. I don't think that the state should have the words officially in there, and I definitely don't think that anyone should be punished for saying it of his/her own volition. Both acts are violations of the first amendment. It's not like reciting the pledge "correctly" or even at all is a mandate, anyway.
I think that I've said on PF before that I don't like the idea of pledges in the first place. I know that I've already mentioned my distaste for indoctrination earlier in this thread.
I think that I've said on PF before that I don't like the idea of pledges in the first place. I know that I've already mentioned my distaste for indoctrination earlier in this thread.
- #159
schwarzchildradius
That's why it would be up to the COUNTY to decide. Not every hole and hovel in the country is entirely Fundamentalist, you know. The Cities would likely be agnostic. The problem is that the Minority likes to eliminate social mobility among other things from the Majority.
Russ_waters, you're saying that a VOTE on this issue is a violation of the 1st amendment of the constitution. The alternative? Handed down by the incarnation of God. Jesus Commands you to say "Under God" during the pledge, eh?
Do you read the 1st amendment as an endorsement of a particular monotheistic religion? I suggest you read it again.
_________
"Accept the result of a free election" Mikhail Gorbechev, 1989. The Fall of the Soviet Union to S O L I D A R I T Y
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- #160
Zero
I'm saying that a vote is a violation of the 1st Amendment. It is a vote to take away people's rights.
Oh, and your dislike of 'minorities' is showing...
- #161
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,829
- 11,305
No, shwarz. Since such a law would violate the 1st amendment, as Zero indicated, the alternative to passing an unconstitutional law is clearly a vote to amend the Constitution. Schwarz, I suggest YOU read the 1st amendment again. And while you're at it, read Article V - justification and procedures for amending the constitution.
- #162
schwarzchildradius
All right, didn't mean to cause angst, but I'm pointing out the absurdity of the situation: The Fed requires kids to say "under God" every day, a fact clearly in violation of the 1st amendment, as a promotion of monotheistic religion. Clearly those who worship several gods or no god are forced by the government to profess faith in One god, or else remain silent.
I really don't believe it could be unconstitutional to EXCLUDE religion from public school, as the 1st amendment clearly provides for a SEPARATE church and state, et al.
I really don't believe it could be unconstitutional to EXCLUDE religion from public school, as the 1st amendment clearly provides for a SEPARATE church and state, et al.
- #163
schwarzchildradius
happen to have an unabridged dictionary handy:
"Article 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Zero:
Dislike of minorities? I don't dislike minorities at all.
"Article 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Zero:
Dislike of minorities? I don't dislike minorities at all.
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- #164
Zero
Nice edit.
- #165
schwarzchildradius
Seriously, I really don't dislike minorities at all. No. Actually, I'm sticking up for a small religious minority by arguing against 'under god.' The thing is, a teacher is representing the government when teaching. It seems like a harmless thing that nobody thinks about while saying, and people should be able to say it if they want to, but not be forced or pressured into saying it if they don't believe in god. What if...
we were forced to change "under god" to "controlled by the benevolent justice of Allah"
there would be something wrong with this? Yup.
My 3rd grade teacher would sometimes go on and on about how Jesus suffered on the cross, and it was very disturbing. That was in public school. We just can't have teachers wasting time trying to convert students to their particular version of theology.
we were forced to change "under god" to "controlled by the benevolent justice of Allah"
there would be something wrong with this? Yup.
My 3rd grade teacher would sometimes go on and on about how Jesus suffered on the cross, and it was very disturbing. That was in public school. We just can't have teachers wasting time trying to convert students to their particular version of theology.