Showing that a set is an ideal

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around demonstrating that the collection of all nilpotent elements of a commutative ring is an ideal. Participants are exploring the necessary conditions and properties that must be satisfied for a set to qualify as an ideal.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the requirements for a set to be an ideal, including the need to show that the set is an additive subgroup and satisfies the absorption property. There is also exploration of whether closure under multiplication is necessary.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants questioning the necessity of certain properties for the set of nilpotent elements. Some guidance has been provided regarding the conditions that must be met, but there is no explicit consensus on the sufficiency of closure under multiplication.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the first condition for an ideal cannot be omitted, emphasizing the importance of including the zero element in the set of nilpotent elements.

Mr Davis 97
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Homework Statement


Show that the collection of all nilpotent elements of a commutative ring ##R## is an ideal.

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


Showing that something is an ideal is somewhat straightforward, but I am a little confused as to what explicitly I have to show. If we denote ##N## as the set in question, then I know that we have to show that ##aN \subseteq N## and ##Nb \subseteq## for all ##a,b \in R##. But what else do I have to show? Do I have to show that N is an additive subgroup?
 
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Mr Davis 97 said:
Do I have to show that N is an additive subgroup
Yes
 
andrewkirk said:
Yes
Consider ##(a + b)^{m+n}##, where ##a,b \in N##. In the binomial expansion, each summand contains a term ##a^{i}b^{m+n−i}##. Now
either ##i \ge m## so that ##a^i## = 0 or ##m+ n − i \ge n## so that ##b^{m+n−i} = 0##. Thus each summand of ##(a + b)^{m+n}##
is zero, so ##(a + b)^{m+n} ##= 0 and ##N## is closed under addition. Also, since ##0^1 = 0##, ##0 \in N##.
Also ##(−a)^m## is either ##a^m## or ##−a^m##, so ##(−a)^m = 0## and ##-a \in N##.

Does this show that ##N## is a additive subgroup of ##R##?
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
Consider ##(a + b)^{m+n}##, where ##a,b \in N##. In the binomial expansion, each summand contains a term ##a^{i}b^{m+n−i}##. Now
either ##i \ge m## so that ##a^i## = 0 or ##m+ n − i \ge n## so that ##b^{m+n−i} = 0##. Thus each summand of ##(a + b)^{m+n}##
is zero, so ##(a + b)^{m+n} ##= 0 and ##N## is closed under addition. Also, since ##0^1 = 0##, ##0 \in N##.
Also ##(−a)^m## is either ##a^m## or ##−a^m##, so ##(−a)^m = 0## and ##-a \in N##.

Does this show that ##N## is a additive subgroup of ##R##?
I think you need the power ##n+m+1##. But basically, yes. For an ideal you also need ##r \cdot a \in N##.
 
fresh_42 said:
I think you need the power ##n+m+1##. But basically, yes. For an ideal you also need ##r \cdot a \in N##.
In the solution to this problem in the book, it also shows that ##N## is closed under multiplication of elements in ##N##. It shows that ##(ab)^{mn} = (a^m)^n(b^n)^m = (0)(0) = 0##, so ##ab \in N##. Isn't this unnecessary? Don't I only need to show that ##N## is an additive subgroup and that is satisfies the absorption property for ideals? Where would being internally closed under multiplication fit in?
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
In the solution to this problem in the book, it also shows that ##N## is closed under multiplication of elements in ##N##. It shows that ##(ab)^{mn} = (a^m)^n(b^n)^m = (0)(0) = 0##, so ##ab \in N##. Isn't this unnecessary? Don't I only need to show that ##N## is an additive subgroup and that is satisfies the absorption property for ideals? Where would being internally closed under multiplication fit in?
Well, it does no harm and is almost obvious in a commutative ring. It shows, that ##N## carries also a ring structure. But if ##r \cdot a \in N## for all ##r \in R\, , \,a \in N##, doesn't this imply ##a\cdot b \in N## for all ##a,b \in N##?
 
fresh_42 said:
Well, it does no harm and is almost obvious in a commutative ring. It shows, that ##N## carries also a ring structure. But if ##r \cdot a \in N## for all ##r \in R\, , \,a \in N##, doesn't this imply ##a\cdot b \in N## for all ##a,b \in N##?
That's what I mean. It seems superfluous. I just want to make sure I know what is strictly necessary to show that some set is an ideal of a ring.
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
That's what I mean. It seems superfluous. I just want to make sure I know what is strictly necessary to show that some set is an ideal of a ring.
Then (minimal) it's (for left ideals)
  1. ##N \neq \emptyset##
  2. ##a - b \in N## for all ##a,b \in N##
  3. ##r \cdot a \in N## for all ##r\in R \, , \,a \in N##
Of course left and right ideals don't have to be distinguished in a commutative ring, but in general they have to be. And the first condition cannot be omitted by the second (##a-a \in N)##, as in case ##N## is empty, the second condition is still true, whereas ##0 \notin N##, which is needed. So we can also write ##0 \in N## as first condition.
 
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