Showing that the Lie derivative of a function is the directional deriv

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lie derivative of a function, particularly in the context of general relativity as presented in Sean Carroll's "Spacetime and Geometry." Participants explore the mathematical definition of the Lie derivative for tensors and its specific application to scalar functions, examining the relationship between the Lie derivative and the directional derivative.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the Lie derivative of a scalar function can be shown to equal the directional derivative, as stated in Carroll's text.
  • Another participant suggests using a Taylor expansion of the function under the diffeomorphism to derive the result.
  • One participant provides a detailed explanation of the relationship between the vector field and the scalar field, demonstrating how the Lie derivative can be expressed in terms of the action of the vector field on the scalar field.
  • A later reply reiterates the previous explanation, emphasizing the definition of the generating vector field and its connection to the integral curve of the vector field.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the definition of the generating vector field and seeks clarification on a specific equation from Carroll's text.
  • Another participant clarifies that the integral curve of the vector field is fundamental to understanding the relationship between the vector field and the scalar field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the derivation of the Lie derivative for scalar functions, as some express uncertainty and seek clarification on specific definitions and concepts.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and assumptions related to the generating vector field and the application of Taylor expansions in this context.

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Hi!

To boost my understanding of the mathematics in relation to general relativity, I'm reading about Lie derivatives in Sean Carroll's "Spacetime and geometry". Here he defines the Lie derivative of a (k,l) tensor at the point p along the vectorfield V as

$$\mathcal{L}_V T^{\mu_1 \cdots \mu_k}_{\ \ \ \nu_1 \cdots \nu_l} = \lim_{t \to 0} \frac{\Delta_t T^{\mu_1 \cdots \mu_k}_{\ \ \ \nu_1 \cdots \nu_l}}{t} $$

where

$$\Delta_t T^{\mu_1 \cdots \mu_k}_{\ \ \ \nu_1 \cdots \nu_l}(p) = \phi^*_t[T^{\mu_1 \cdots \mu_k}_{\ \ \ \nu_1 \cdots \nu_l}(\phi_t(p))] - T^{\mu_1 \cdots \mu_k}_{\ \ \ \nu_1 \cdots \nu_l}(p)$$

and ##\phi_t## is a family of diffeomorphisms parametrised by ##t## generated by the vector field V. The * here denotes the pullback operation. In the book at page 432 he states that one should after a moments reflection be able to be convinced that the Lie derivative of an ordinary function is given by

$$\mathcal{L}_V f = V(f)$$

i.e. that it is just given by the action of the vector V on the scalar (the directional derivative). However I do not see how this follows from the above definition. If I just plug in a (0,0)-tensor (i.e. a scalar) I get

$$\mathcal{L}_V(p) = \lim_{t\to 0} \frac{\phi^*_t[f (\phi_t(p))] - f(p)}{t}$$

and I do not see how this is supposed to reduce to the directional derivative. Can someone enlighten me? :)
 
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Let the manifold be ##M## and the vector field be expressed in local coordinates as

$$ V = \sum_\mu v^\mu \partial_\mu.$$

The family of diffeomorphisms generated by ##V## is the map ##\phi_t:\mathbb{R}\times M \rightarrow M##, where

$$\phi_t: (t, p^1 , \ldots ,p^n) \mapsto (v^1 t + p^1 , \ldots, v^n t + p^n).$$

If you now apply this to your formula (by Taylor expanding ##f(\phi_t)## or something more rigorous), you should be able to arrive at the result.
 
There's a very easy way to see it. Let ##\xi## be a vector field and ##\alpha## a scalar field. Taking ##p\in M##, and ##\phi_t## the one-parameter group of diffeomorphisms generated by ##\xi## on a neighborhood of ##p##, we have ##\xi|_p (\alpha) = \frac{\mathrm{d} }{\mathrm{d} t}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}##.

Now ##\phi_t^{*}(\alpha) = \alpha \circ \phi_t## hence
##(\mathcal{L}_{\xi}\alpha)(p) = \lim_{t\rightarrow 0}\frac{(\phi_t^{*}(\alpha))(p) - \alpha(p)}{t}\\ = \lim_{t\rightarrow 0}\frac{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p) - (\alpha \circ \phi_0)(p)}{t}\\ = \frac{\mathrm{d} }{\mathrm{d} t}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}\\ = \xi|_{p}(\alpha)##.
 
WannabeNewton said:
There's a very easy way to see it. Let ##\xi## be a vector field and ##\alpha## a scalar field. Taking ##p\in M##, and ##\phi_t## the one-parameter group of diffeomorphisms generated by ##\xi## on a neighborhood of ##p##, we have ##\xi|_p (\alpha) = \frac{\mathrm{d} }{\mathrm{d} t}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}##.

Now ##\phi_t^{*}(\alpha) = \alpha \circ \phi_t## hence
##(\mathcal{L}_{\xi}\alpha)(p) = \lim_{t\rightarrow 0}\frac{(\phi_t^{*}(\alpha))(p) - \alpha(p)}{t}\\ = \lim_{t\rightarrow 0}\frac{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p) - (\alpha \circ \phi_0)(p)}{t}\\ = \frac{\mathrm{d} }{\mathrm{d} t}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}\\ = \xi|_{p}(\alpha)##.

Thanks! The only think I'm not sure if I understand is why

##\xi|_p (\alpha) = \frac{\mathrm{d} }{\mathrm{d} t}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}##.

I might not have the definition of the generating vector field straight. Equation (B.3) in Carroll does not help that much.
 
Last edited:
It's because ##\gamma(t) = \phi_t(p)## is an integral curve of ##\xi## that starts at ##p## (by definition of what it means for ##\phi_t## to be the one-parameter group of diffeomorphisms generated by ##\xi##) so ##\xi|_p(\alpha) = \dot{\gamma}|_p (\alpha) = \frac{d}{dt}(\alpha \circ \gamma)|_{t = 0} = \frac{d}{dt}\{(\alpha \circ \phi_t)(p)\}|_{t = 0}##.
 

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