Sociopathy, bullies, guns, media, ignorance - Not mental illness

[denverdoc]

What a great thread, welcome to the conflicting issues I deal with.

Rank the following 10 priorities:

1) I don't get sued
2) The duty to warn, if someone expresses violent thoughts toward another I have the duty to find this person and warn him/her
3) The duty to protect the person seeking my services from self harm
4) The absolute sacred obligation to maintain confidentiality which if breached can have small or devastating negative consequences, but also can be life saving.
5) to be an advocate for those who have a stigmatic but biological illness
6) to be ever vigilant re ulterior motives in seeking help, sometimes for legal reasons, for others to maintain an addiction, or just to get probation officer, spouse, parent off his/her case and has no genuine interest in treatment
7) To differentiate the occasional case of someones coping skills being temporarily overloaded, vs more serious longshanding issue
8) To sift through what the patient tells you and what is real, and often not black and white. Sometimes little insight, sometimes denial, confabulation, you name it.
9) Along the lines of 8, to differentiate situations where patient has illness and chooses not to take meds, vs medication failure, vs feigned illness.
10) To forecast disability, danger, etc to a courts satisfaction
Etc, etc.

I'm thinking rocket science is easier. At least they have equations!

 

[chroot]

Finally some commonsense. Yes, I have a friend that is from Ukraine and he told me that they do a Psyche exam before giving out the guns. Once again, he is mentally ill, he got a gun, in the US of A. No need to be all philosophical, facts are facts, a mentally ill person got a gun. Restriction of freedom, what freedom, was he a mentally ill getting a gun to protect himself from murder? I know people could get gun illegally, but let people like him get guns legally?

I see no empirical reason to believe that a psych exam would be reliable enough to stop a person like him from getting a gun legally. I would need to hear from a trained psychologist before I even accept this as a legitimate concept, much less a solution. Why are you so quick to accept something you don't even know will work?

The Ukraine does not exactly have a stunning reputation of peace, either, you know.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

I agree, Healey01, that we might be able to gain some traction with grassroots movements and public advisory education. It certainly couldn't hurt for more people to know what the warning signs are, etc.

Unfortunately, the killers themselves would receive the same education, so they'd know exactly what to avoid doing in public to escape detection.

I'd almost be willing to say that these incidents would happen less frequently if only people were more... neighborly. I have no statistics or anything to back it up, but it seems that most people in American society don't really know their neighbors at all, much less break bread with them and know them well enough to judge their mental states. Perhaps people would feel less alienated if their neighbors took more of an interest in them. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping people from simply opting out of talking with their neighbors, and you can't force such things.

I've long felt that American culture favors social protocols which isolate people. TV dinners and fast-food arguably encourage eating alone. Television, Netflix, etc. encourage people to entertain themselves at home, without interacting with other people. People rely more and more on cars every year, and those cars are continually designed to be self-contained little mobile pockets of "home" so that people never have to see or interact with anyone else. The internet, online shopping, and other modern conveniences have also encouraged people to stay home and interact as little as possible with other human beings. Anecdotally, I know several people who dislike calling pizza joints to order a pizza, because they don't want to talk on the phone.

I am not qualified to say whether this culture of isolationism could possibly lead to mass murders, but it seems plausible that it makes it harder for society to recognize people who are in dire need of help.

- Warren

Jesus, you are as bad as the journalists that put out the stupid articles by analyzing things, no commonsense. Are you an English or social science major? Most likely a Psyche major... Am I right? Rationalizing the irrational, am I right?

 

[chroot]

What a great thread, welcome to the conflicting issues I deal with.

Rank the following 10 priorities:

...

I'm thinking rocket science is easier. At least they have equations!

Wait! You mean you can't reliably determine whether or not someone's going to shoot up their school by just asking them a couple dozen questions?? I'm shocked.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Jesus, you are as bad as the journalists that put out the stupid articles by analyzing things, no commonsense. Are you an Engish or social science major?

What's common sense, Mathgician? Employing a hundred million people to snoop on everyone who's ever been mentally ill? Determining someone's privilege to buy a gun with a fifteen minute psychological screening?

And... no. I'm an electrical engineer with a graduate degree from one of the most prestigious universities on the planet.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

I see no empirical reason to believe that a psych exam would be reliable enough to stop a person like him from getting a gun legally. I would need to hear from a trained psychologist before I even accept this as a legitimate concept, much less a solution. Why are you so quick to accept something you don't even know will work?

The Ukraine does not exactly have a stunning reputation of peace, either, you know.

- Warren

Your last statement is something called a generalization.

 

[Mathgician]

What's common sense, Mathgician? Employing a hundred million people to snoop on everyone who's ever been mentally ill? Determining someone's privilege to buy a gun with a fifteen minute psychological screening?

And... no. I'm an electrical engineer with a graduate degree from one of the most prestigious universities on the planet.

- Warren

And your last statement says what? I go to a community college and I can't have a good opinion or commonsense?

 

[chroot]

Your last statement is something called a generalization.

So you have no rebuttal?

- Warren

 

[chroot]

And your last statement says what? I go to a community college an I can't have a good opinion?

Hey, you're the one that brought up education, kiddo.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

What's common sense, Mathgician? Employing a hundred million people to snoop on everyone who's ever been mentally ill? Determining someone's privilege to buy a gun with a fifteen minute psychological screening?

And... no. I'm an electrical engineer with a graduate degree from one of the most prestigious universities on the planet.

- Warren

So far, you have been saying things I have not expressed as part of my reasoning, you are assuming that is part of my reasoning.

 

[chroot]

So far, you have been sayings thing I have not expressed as part of my reasoning, but you are asuming that I think that.

Your reasoning was this: Well, there is not a single place to blame everything, but if there is a mentally not sound individuals easily having access to weapons, there is something wrong. There are many people in this world that should be under supervision and should be under restriction for the safety of society.

In other words, you propose that we supervise all of the world's mentally unsound people to make sure they don't have or get weapons. Millions and millions and millions of them...

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

Your reasoning was this: Well, there is not a single place to blame everything, but if there is a mentally not sound individuals easily having access to weapons, there is something wrong. There are many people in this world that should be under supervision and should be under restriction for the safety of society.

In other words, you propose that we supervise all of the world's mentally unsound people to make sure they don't have or get weapons. Millions and millions and millions of them...

- Warren

again, assuming. And more generalizations

 

[chroot]

again, assuming. Maybe they should then?

What am I assuming? I'm reading your statements, and responding to them directly. Which of the following statements do you disagree with?

1) There are tens of millions of 'mentally unsound' people in the world.

2) Your statement did not make any distinction among various categories of mentally unsound people.

3) Your statement did not provide any criteria upon which one could make such a distinction.

4) Your statement therefore implied that all mentally unsound people should be supervised and not be permitted to have weapons.

5) The economic consequences of employing a labor force large enough to adequately supervise tens of millions of mentally unsound people would be disastrous.

6) There is no historical precedent that indicates it would even work.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

What am I assuming? I'm reading your statements, and responding to them directly. Which of the following statements do you disagree with?

1) There are tens of millions of 'mentally unsound' people in the world.

2) Your statement did not make any distinction among various categories of mentally unsound people.

3) Your statement did not provide any criteria upon which one could make such a distinction.

4) Your statement therefore implied that all mentally unsound people should be supervised and not be permitted to have weapons.

5) The economic consequences of employing a labor force large enough to adequately supervise tens of millions of mentally unsound people would be disastrous.

- Warren

I said Cho got a gun. Nuff said.

 

[Integral]

Mathgician;

Where are you coming from with this? Where are your going? Could you please be a bit more specific in what Chroot said that is so illogical?

I understand exactly what he is saying and believe that the lack of community responsibility is indeed the root of a lot of our problems. Many of us are more familiar with the thoughts and ideas of total strangers who may live anywhere else in the world then we are with our next door neighbor. This seems wrong.

 

[chroot]

I said Cho got a gun. Nuff said.

That's not at all what you said. If you're going to continue in this discussion, please find the intellectual integrity to admit when someone else has made a valid point against you.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

Mathgician;

Where are you coming from with this? Where are your going? Could you please be a bit more specific in what Chroot said that is so illogical?

I understand exactly what he is saying and believe that the lack of community responsibility is indeed the root of a lot of our problems. Many of us are more familiar with the thoughts and ideas of total strangers who may live anywhere else in the world then we are with our next door neighbor. This seems wrong.

Do you believe after reading all this, this is a matter of logic?

 

[Mathgician]

That's not at all what you said. If you're going to continue in this discussion, please find the intellectual integrity to admit when someone else has made a valid point against you.

- Warren

And your valid points are saying things that I have not said? And your points are valid to everyone including me or just to you?

 

[chroot]

Many of us are more familiar with the thoughts and ideas of total strangers who may live anywhere else in the world then we are with our next door neighbor. This seems wrong.

To be fair, I would so much prefer it if PF were pub down the street rather than simply a website!

- Warren

 

[chroot]

And your valid points are saying things that I have not said? And your points are valid to everyone including me or just to you?

I broke your argument and my response to it down to six specific points, and asked you which you disagreed with. Your response was unrelated. You seem to have some kind of attitude towards me, but I'm only trying to coax you into some kind of meaningful debate.

- Warren

 

[Mathgician]

I broke your argument and my response to it down to six specific points, and asked you which you disagreed with. Your response was unrelated. You seem to have some kind of attitude towards me, but I'm only trying to coax you into some kind of meaningful debate.

- Warren

No attitude, just a very stubborn personality and I don't agree with what you have said so far. I like my beliefs, don't you? I also wish there was a PF pub, I think our discussion would be more realistic than posting stuff here like maniacs PS. I didn't ask you to break my argument down, but that is fine. You make it seem like its a big argument, all I can say is, its a simple opinion from a person don't know much, I am an electrical engineer myself, I don't go to a prestigious school(too expensive). I think you are making it serious than it is by "breaking it down".

 

[Mathgician]

What school do you go to Chroot? And what makes it so prestigious of this planet? Is it the 200 years old archetecture or the types of people that pays many times as much more money than students that go to a community college?

 

[chroot]

I think you are making it serious than it is by "breaking it down".

Perhaps... I just wish there were some kind of clear, obvious, easy-to-implement solution to the school-shooting problem. Unfortunately, I don't think such a solution exists, so I end up railing against any suggestions that seem to be poorly-analyzed panacea. I believe the suggestion to 'supervise them all' is such a poorly-analyzed panacea.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

What school do you go to Chroot? And what makes it so prestigious?

Stanford. The faculty. (but let's try to stay on-topic)

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Is it the 200 years old archetecture or the types of people that pays many times as much more money than students that go to a community college?

False dichotomy. If you really think Stanford and a community college only differ in architecture and price, I fear for your sanity. Perhaps that question should be on the psych exam to see if people should be permitted to buy a gun.

- Warren

 

[Huckleberry]

Cho got the guns legally, that tells you that either the process of getting a gun is not regulated or someone did something illegal. Then the consequences are the loss of 32 students that didn't deserve what they got. Well, there is not a single place to blame everything, but if there is a mentally not sound individuals easily having access to weapons, there is something wrong. There are many people in this world that should be under supervision and should be under restriction for the safety of society.

The OP of this thread is not about Cho, nor is it about guns. It is not even certain from this thread that Cho's illness is a result of his childhood environment, though I believe that may be the case. His example is just one outcome of many forms of violence and self destructive behavior that can develop from experiences in childhood.

I do not believe that waiting for people to develop a mental illness and then proposing invading their rights for the safety of society is the ideal solution. If something can be done to prevent the mental illness, or at least catch it early and prevent it from progressing, this would be a better solution.

 

[Mathgician]

Stanford. The faculty. (but let's try to stay on-topic)

- Warren

Wow, I'm arguing against a Standford kid, I wonder if I'm getting any smarter?

 

[chroot]

I do not believe that waiting for people to develop a mental illness and then proposing the invading their rights for the safety of society is the ideal solution. If something can be done to prevent the mental illness, or at least catch it early and prevent it from progressing, this would be a better solution.

Excellent point, well-stated.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Wow, I'm arguing against a Standford kid, I wonder if I'm getting any smarter?

No more of this off-topic pissing contest stuff in this thread, okay? I didn't start it, nor will I participate in it. If you'd like to discuss it, PM me.

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

I just want to say one thing. Pilots are required to get a medical every year.

Why is it that someone can buy a gun, and not have any evaluation later on. Sure, the guy might be normal today, but in ten years he might go crazy and be heavily armed.

I don't think that its unreasonable to have some form of a check system done by a medical doctor at least once a year that shows the guy is sane.

Im not going to pretend that this would stop guys like Cho, BUTT it might stop a few people who show obvious signs of nuttyness, which is better than stopping none.

They way it is right now, I see there being far too few prevention methods on obtaining weapons. I don't blame weapons and I think there perfectly safe for society, but the fact that you can walk into a store and walk out the same day with a weapon is much too simple a procedure.

Unless you want to go on a shooting rampage, there's no reason why you can't wait a week, a month or two and then get your weapon of choice.