Sociopathy, bullies, guns, media, ignorance - Not mental illness

[Loren Booda]

Great list, Huck. I can only imagine how I would have developed had I not loving (though not perfect) parents.

Children often learn quite effectively to hide their feelings. If only we could teach them to objectify unconventional behavior, and regard those acting out.

 

[BillJx]

Dave Grossman is a psychologist who specializes in the psychology of killing. He's convinced that violent video games are a major factor in teenage mass killings, and some of them are equivalent to training simulations. In fact, according to Grossman, some games are used by terrorist organizations for training and desensitiztion.

http://www.fradical.com/statement_of_lieutenant_colonel_dave_Grossman.htm

Elsewhere on this forum, there's a discussion on political systems. Obviously capitalism works. Obviously, a free political system has to allow people to accumulate wealth and power, and even to expect some degree of selfish abuse. But a civilized society needs to set limits.

 

[Mallignamius]

Do you have any idea how many kids play violent video games? Compare that to the number of mass teenage killings and tell me what you come up with.

 

[mathPimpDaddy]

Oh man, not another violent video game theory, is there anything that does not put blame on videogames?

 

[scorpa]

Do you have any idea how many kids play violent video games? Compare that to the number of mass teenage killings and tell me what you come up with.

Agreed, I don't know anyone who didn't play them at one time or another and none of my friends turned into killers. Heck many of my friends who played those games also grew up on farms where they learned to use guns at an early age, as well as had to help in tasks such as butchering and no one ever turned violent. Seems more like an excuse to me.

 

[ShawnD]

Do you have any idea how many kids play violent video games? Compare that to the number of mass teenage killings and tell me what you come up with.

Done
http://economist.com/images/20050806/CSF334.gif

Crime is at an all time low while video game sales are at an all time high. Using extraordinarily bad reasoning we can conclude that video games actively prevent violence.

Does anybody else think that people should be required to support their crackpot claims with statistics? If I were to claim that ice cream causes murder, then supported it with charts showing a correlation, that would actually have more credibility than some jackass saying video games cause crime then giving absolutely no supporting evidence. Ya know what? Telephones cause HIV. It's true, even though I have absolutely no statistics or scientific evidence to back it up!

 

[Mallignamius]

You're right. Telephones cause HIV.

http://img179.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=71458_telehiv_122_380lo.jpg

 

[russ_watters]

As to schoolyard bullies, I am a bit appalled at both Russ's and Waren's dismissal of this rite of childhood torture. It leads me to a conclusion which I will not state.

As for myself, I was on the receiving end, so am a bit more sensitive to its effects.

Don't judge: Like warren, I was so unpopular in middle school that I was on the edge of becoming popularly unpopular. I participated in a talent show in 7th grade and after my group's performance (2 guys singing Twist and Shout, with me playing it on a keyboard) the entire auditorium started chanting my name. I never did get in a real fight, though, so he has me beat there.

Now, I was picked on, lots of kids are picked we gritted our teeth and endured another day and have never went postal.

Yes, exactly...

My ex wife immigrated to the US when she was 10yrs old. So have some knowledge of the difficulties child emigrants face. Official study of their native language pretty much ends when they arrive in the US, so they are never taught the full depth of their language, they sort of stagnate at the child level of communication being denied a formal education in the language they think in. Then they must pick up and become proficient in a new language, but due to the language barrier as they are learning they often get poor fundamentals of English. This is a form of communication barrier which must be overcome.

Clearly Cho was unable to deal with these issues.

You're saying Cho went postal because of a combination of being picked-on for being different and not having good language skills? C'mon - the US is an immigrant nation and there are millions of people who go through what Cho did on a yearly basis. He couldn't have done too badly: he made it into a decent school.

No, I'm sticking with the undiagnosed mental illness. According to his parents, he was always that way. Society does occasionally create psychopaths, but there is nothing terribly unique about what Cho went through that should have triggered it.

 

[russ_watters]

It seems that Cho did not have the benefit of someone who could stand up for or support him. Rather, he became isolated.

Are we talking about the same person? It was reported that everyone around him knew of is problems and dozens of people tried to reach out to him. His parents tried to get him help. His teachers tried to get him help (and protect the school). His roommates tried to engage him. He rebuffed all attempts to socialize with him.

I grieve for his parents, who have lost a son and who have to live with what he has done, but at the same time, I wonder why they didn't notice something was wrong. They made a statement that they never would have believed that Cho was capable of something so violent.

Read more of their statements and read between the lines a little more. They didn't believe that he was capable of that. They were his parents and no parent would believe that. That doesn't mean that they didn't know something was wrong with him. They did. They said it. A judge said it! They knew and they failed to protect society from him.

We can make a case of self-responsibility, and we expect adults to be more or less self-sufficient and responsible. In reality, some members of society have some difficult or in some cases a lot of difficulty being self-sufficient and responsible. How do we as a society deal with that?

Well, we could start by putting his parents in the same jail cell as Harris and Kleibold's parents. All of them failed in their responsibility. They were criminally neglegent and their failure to protect society from the threat they had full control over resulted in dozens of deaths.

 

[russ_watters]

Dave Grossman is a psychologist who specializes in the psychology of killing. He's convinced that violent video games are a major factor in teenage mass killings, and some of them are equivalent to training simulations. In fact, according to Grossman, some games are used by terrorist organizations for training and desensitiztion.

There is no way to sugar coat this, so I'll just say it: pshrinks who think that are just jackasses (edit: heh - shawn beat me to it). My dad played cops and robbers with cap guns that looked like real guns, pointing them at people and saying "you're dead". I play video games and point images of guns at images of people. There is no inherrent difference in the violence content of such play. It is a rediculous theory.

 

[Astronuc]

Well, we could start by putting his parents in the same jail cell as Harris and Kleibold's parents. All of them failed in their responsibility. They were criminally neglegent and their failure to protect society from the threat they had full control over resulted in dozens of deaths.

Cho was an adult (age 23), and his parents are no longer legally responsible. "Cho purchased his first gun, the .22 caliber Walther P22 on February 2, 2007 . . ."

Other than have trouble socializing, it might not have been evident to Cho's parents - 6 years ago when he was a minor - that he could be a danger to himself or others. Parents are not perpetually legally responsible of their off-spring. At the time of the attacks, he [Cho] was living in Harper Hall, a dormitory just west of West Ambler Johnston Hall.

Harris and Klebold were 18 and 17, respectively, and living in their parent's home, and thus I believe they were still depends and their parents were considered guardians, and therefore legally responsible for their childrens' acts, which were apparently planned at home.

The police and legal authorities are responsible for protecting society.

It was reported that everyone around him knew of is problems and dozens of people tried to reach out to him. His parents tried to get him help. His teachers tried to get him help (and protect the school). His roommates tried to engage him. He rebuffed all attempts to socialize with him.

True, but that was in college, when he apparently had fallen over the edge. I was thinking about high school, or earlier, apparently when (?) he was bullied, which was chroot's point of reference.

 

[Huckleberry]

No, I'm sticking with the undiagnosed mental illness. According to his parents, he was always that way. Society does occasionally create psychopaths, but there is nothing terribly unique about what Cho went through that should have triggered it.

I think it's a bit soon to judge what may have caused Cho's mental illness. All I've heard about his family is a few comments from his uncle and sister. His parents were both hospitalized after the VT incident and have not commented. I'm sure psychologists will dig into his family life and start drawing more conclusions very soon. There may be something there, and there may not. Time will tell if Cho's condition was purely biological or if there was an environmental element to it.

 

[Astronuc]

I think it's a bit soon to judge what may have caused Cho's mental illness. All I've heard about his family is a few comments from his uncle and sister. His parents were both hospitalized after the VT incident and have not commented. I'm sure psychologists will dig into his family life and start drawing more conclusions very soon. There may be something there, and there may not. Time will tell if Cho's condition was purely biological or if there was an environmental element to it.

Since he is dead, it may be too late to evaluate Cho's mental health. I think various parties are already speculating on a variety of disorders, e.g. schizophrenia, Aspberger's, ASD, . . .

And what comes out is that it is apparently very difficult, if not impossible, to predict anyone person's future behavior, with current evaluation protocol.

 

[denverdoc]

Done
http://economist.com/images/20050806/CSF334.gif

Crime is at an all time low while video game sales are at an all time high. Using extraordinarily bad reasoning we can conclude that video games actively prevent violence.

Does anybody else think that people should be required to support their crackpot claims with statistics? If I were to claim that ice cream causes murder, then supported it with charts showing a correlation, that would actually have more credibility than some jackass saying video games cause crime then giving absolutely no supporting evidence. Ya know what? Telephones cause HIV. It's true, even though I have absolutely no statistics or scientific evidence to back it up!

Well lacking any links to your statistics, and first and foremost, let me just say that I enjoy video games, there is no way you or anyone can assert that behavior modelling is without influence. I see this every day, day in, day out till I'm sick of it. Those who resort to violence are trained as such, or seen another way, our violent tendencies are tempered by social conditining. This is a profound prerequisite for peace, and most primates establish a very distinct pecking order and keep it that way. Its way more complicated than this to be sure.

Lets say I saw a 13 year old kid, who was becoming more sullen and irritable, had few friends and spent his entire time playing the most blood and guts games out there, vs one who played piano and watched old musicals. Now if you were in my shoes as a psychiatrist, just which of the two would you worry about most.

Now it is more complicated as if daddy was Rambo, he'd likely have inherited higher levels of aggressivity. So both environment and genes are working in concert. But in absentia of any good modeling and left to his own devices, exposed to violence constantly as a means of solution, come on? This is where the exposue to violence is a liability. Maybe someone smart can create a kill your school bullies game, but that may backfire as well.

 

[ShawnD]

Lets say I saw a 13 year old kid, who was becoming more sullen and irritable, had few friends and spent his entire time playing the most blood and guts games out there, vs one who played piano and watched old musicals. Now if you were in my shoes as a psychiatrist, just which of the two would you worry about most.

I would worry about the one playing piano and watching musicals because it gives the impression that the kid is trying to please somebody else, and if anybody is going to snap, it's him. The kid playing games is doing it to please himself. He has lots of leisure time and he's left to his own devices. He won't need to snap because he already has his own way of venting frustration.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm : Violent crime is at record lows
http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php : "US computer and video game software sales grew six percent in 2006 to $7.4 billion – almost tripling industry software sales since 1996"

That graph I posted before is from an article in The Economist (hence being hosted from economist.com), originally from a http://www.theesa.com/archives/2006EF%20Youth%20Violence.pdf .

Claiming there is a link between games and violence is as credible as claiming the Earth is flat. It may have been believed by somebody at some time, but it doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence.

 

[light_bulb]

i'll attempt to sum everyones comments up. 'you never can tell'

 

[denverdoc]

See I would take a different take. By listening to musicals or creating art, people often sublimate the rage and turn in into something positive. They have more releases to take the rage and turn in into something besides violence. There are thousands of these cases daily, and can even add myself to the list, rage from whatever source can be directed in a less sociopathic direction than a kiling spree. Course that may be even more painful, eg Bill Gates. See I'm thinking Bill is the marquis de sades now life.

It is like such complete nonsense to believe that the tools and toys at your disposal have no powerful influence on yours skills and strategies as to how to cope with danger, this is mindless. Refresh my memory when was the last musical loving, piano player convicted of mass murder?

 

[Mallignamius]

Refresh my memory when was the last musical loving, piano player convicted of mass murder?

When was the last violent video game programmer convicted of murder?

 

[Loren Booda]

Maybe more acts of violence could be prevented by parents actualizing more concern. I once heard that fathers spend on average less than 15 quality minutes with his children daily.

A dozen kids (ages 4-10) were playing in my girlfriend's condo complex today. They went mostly unsupervised in a neighborhood which, I am told, has more than its share of pedophiles.

 

[ShawnD]

See I would take a different take. By listening to musicals or creating art, people often sublimate the rage and turn in into something positive. They have more releases to take the rage and turn in into something besides violence. There are thousands of these cases daily, and can even add myself to the list, rage from whatever source can be directed in a less sociopathic direction than a kiling spree. Course that may be even more painful, eg Bill Gates. See I'm thinking Bill is the marquis de sades now life.

That's true of all things constructive, but only if it's by choice. I made the statement of "trying to please somebody else" because when I was growing up I knew several kids who played musical instruments and did artistic things only because their parents forced them to. Playing the guitar is something many kids freely want to learn, and my guitar-playing friends actually liked guitar; they would play it while listening to music. The kids who played things like violin and piano seemed to hate it with a passion because they didn't personally like piano or violin music. Have you ever seen King of the Hill where Kahn is always forcing his kid to play violin? That's exactly how it was.

I made the distinction between playing piano and playing video games in that no parent forces their kid to play violent video games. Sure there are kids out there who actually like piano, I just haven't met one yet