Solving Confusion About Parallelograms in Curved Spacetime

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the confusion surrounding the representation of spacetime as a rectangle in curved spacetime, specifically addressing the time dilation effects experienced when moving vertically on Earth. The equation for time dilation, t(h) = (1+gh/c²) t(0), illustrates that the total time difference is proportional to both the waiting time and height. Participants highlight the distinction between geodesics and non-geodesics in spacetime, referencing John Baez's work on torsion-free spaces and the implications for constructing geometric shapes in spacetime. The conversation emphasizes the need for clarity in understanding the geometric representation of spacetime and the nature of time dilation.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of general relativity concepts, particularly spacetime curvature
  • Familiarity with time dilation equations, specifically t(h) = (1+gh/c²) t(0)
  • Knowledge of geodesics and their significance in curved spacetime
  • Basic grasp of mathematical concepts related to limits and orders of infinitesimals
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the implications of geodesics in general relativity and their role in spacetime diagrams
  • Explore John Baez's work on torsion in spacetime and its mathematical foundations
  • Learn about the concept of null geodesics and their application in spacetime curvature analysis
  • Investigate the relationship between time dilation and gravitational effects in various contexts
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of general relativity, and anyone interested in the geometric interpretation of spacetime and the effects of gravity on time perception.

Sonderval
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One way to see that spacetime is curved is to try and draw a "rectangle" in spacetime (see the figure in the Feynman lectures, ch 42.7): If I wait for 100 seconds and then move upwards on earth, I end up at a different point in spacetime than when I first move upwards and then wait for 100 seconds.
As long as height changes are small, the time dilation on Earth is linear with height,
[tex]t(h) = (1+gh/c^2) t(0)[/tex]
The total distance in time between the two points I reach using the two different ways is thus t(h)-t(0), proportional to the time I wait (waiting 200s instead of 100 will double it) and proportional to the height.
This means that if I draw a small "square" with edges in the r- and t-direction and edgelength ε, the distance of the two end points to reach the opposite corner is proportional to ε².

However, both Penroses Road to reality (ch 14) as well as this page:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/torsion.html
state that in a torsion-free space, the opposite corners of a square constructed this way should touch up to order ε³.

So, obviously, I'm making a stupid mistake. Can anybody tell me where it is?
 
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Sonderval said:
One way to see that spacetime is curved is to try and draw a "rectangle" in spacetime (see the figure in the Feynman lectures, ch 42.7): If I wait for 100 seconds and then move upwards on earth, I end up at a different point in spacetime than when I first move upwards and then wait for 100 seconds.
As long as height changes are small, the time dilation on Earth is linear with height,
[tex]t(h) = (1+gh/c^2) t(0)[/tex]
The total distance in time between the two points I reach using the two different ways is thus t(h)-t(0), proportional to the time I wait (waiting 200s instead of 100 will double it) and proportional to the height.
This means that if I draw a small "square" with edges in the r- and t-direction and edgelength ε, the distance of the two end points to reach the opposite corner is proportional to ε².

However, both Penroses Road to reality (ch 14) as well as this page:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/torsion.html
state that in a torsion-free space, the opposite corners of a square constructed this way should touch up to order ε³.

So, obviously, I'm making a stupid mistake. Can anybody tell me where it is?

I'm not confident that this is the complete answer, but I think that John Baez is talking about making a rectangle whose sides are geodesics. In contrast, it sounds like Feynman is talking about a rectangle whose sides are not geodesics. If you wait 100 seconds at a constant height [itex]h[/itex] above the surface of the Earth, then you aren't following a geodesic. So that's not following a geodesic.

On the other hand, the reason I'm not confident in my answer is because my first intuition would be that the procedure that Feynman is talking about would give a coordinate-dependent quantity, not spacetime curvature.
 
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@stevendaryl
Good idea, I did not think of that.
I'm not sure it helps, though. Let's replace the vertical (time-oriented) edges of the square with lightcones (null geodesics), and the horizontal part with the world line of a free-falling particle that is initially at rest. (Or am I not allowed to use null geodesics here because they have zero four-length? Alternatively, I could use worldlines of a particle moving with v close to c.)
The distance in free falling for the horizontal part is proportional to t². Both horizontal lines will "fall" by the same amount of r=(1/2)gt², so this does not seem to change their distance.
I've tried to calculate this using a square with side lengths 1ns and 0,3m (to have meaningful ε).
The vertical fall is then 5E-18m; and this gets divided by c² in the formula for the time dilation I wrote down above; so I do not see how this can compensate for the quadratic dependence.
 

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