What Are the Differences Between Space-like and Time-like Events in Spacetime?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between space-like and time-like events in spacetime, particularly in the context of special relativity. Participants explore the mathematical definitions, implications for causality, and the concept of proper distance in relation to these events.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes time-like events as having a real residual spacetime value, while space-like events yield an imaginary value, questioning the mathematical manipulation that allows for a proper distance definition in space-like regions.
  • Another participant provides an example involving light pulses sent from an observer, asserting that proper distance is a geometric invariant in Minkowski spacetime, despite the events being space-like separated.
  • A participant introduces Riemannian geometry to clarify the mathematical treatment of spacetime signatures, suggesting that the equivalence of different signatures does not affect the identification of time-like dimensions.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of causal relationships, with some participants questioning whether sending signals to space-like separated events constitutes a causal connection.
  • Several participants express confusion over the definitions of causal relationships and the implications of sending signals towards space-like separated events, leading to a debate about the terminology and concepts involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of proper distance and causal relationships in the context of space-like and time-like events. There is no consensus on whether proper distance should be considered in the case of space-like events, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of sending signals to such events.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of definitions and mathematical manipulations involved in spacetime concepts, indicating that assumptions about causality and proper distance may vary based on interpretations of the underlying physics.

Mikeal
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I decided to re-visit special relativity and spacetime. All went well until I reached the subject of time-like and space-like events and their relation to causality.

Time-like Events

The residual spacetime value between two time-like events is defined as: ∆S = √(c∆t)^ - ∆x^2, where c∆t > ∆x.

Thus, ∆S is real and defines as series of hyperbolic curves in the past and future light-cones of an Event (0,0). Events in these regions can have a causal relationship with Event (0,0).

Proper time is given by ∆S/c = ∆t = t√(1 - (V^2/c^2))

Any attempt to determine proper distance in these regions, results in an imaginary value (i.e. there is no proper distance for space-like separated events). So far, so good.

Space-like Events

This is where my understanding breaks down.

The residual spacetime value between two space-like events is defined as: ∆S = √(c∆t)^2 - ∆x^2, where c∆t < ∆x.

Thus, ∆S is imaginary. This makes sense, as space-like events are in the "elsewhere regions" of Event (0,0) and thus cannot have a causal relationship with it.

However, The texts that I've read , magically reverse the signs within the square root, such that:

∆S = √∆x^2 - (c∆t)^2 and ∆S thus becomes real. I think this mathematical manipulation is akin to rotating the elsewhere regions by ninety degrees to where the past and future lights cones used to be.

Once this is done: ∆S = ∆x√(1 - (c2/V2)), which is defined as the "proper distance" between Event (0,0) and events in the elsewhere regions. Because of this mathematical manipulation, even though V > c, the proper distance is a real value. In fact if V < c, proper distance becomes imaginary.

So my questions are:

1) How can the spacetime relationship between ct and x be flipped at will to make things work-out right?

2) How can there be a "proper distance" between Event (0,0) and events in the elsewhere regions, if they are not causally related?

3) Shouldn't we just define the "elsewhere regions" as imaginary/not causally related and ignore the concept of "proper distance"?
 
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Here is an example (first posted by JDoolin). If an observer at (0,0) sends two light pulses, one each of the -x and x directions where the light is reflected back from (0,-5) and (0,5). The two mirrors are space-like separated but are still involved in an interaction with the emitter.

We can't ignore proper distance - it is the geometric invariant of the Minkowski spacetime.
 
Mikeal said:
1) How can the spacetime relationship between ct and x be flipped at will to make things work-out right?
So this is a piece of special relativity that is really clarified by the math of general relativity: Riemannian geometry.

In Riemannian geometry the signature of the metric determines the number of dimensions as well as whether they are spacelike or timelike. So the first expression you wrote corresponds to a (+---) signature, and the second one you wrote corresponds to a (-+++) signature.

The two signatures are completely equivalent. The thing which identifies time is the fact that there is only one timelike dimension, and whether you assign that a positive or negative signature doesn't matter.
 
Mentz114 said:
Here is an example (first posted by JDoolin). If an observer at (0,0) sends two light pulses, one each of the -x and x directions where the light is reflected back from (0,-5) and (0,5). The two mirrors are space-like separated but are still involved in an interaction with the emitter.

We can't ignore proper distance - it is the geometric invariant of the Minkowski spacetime.

Events (0,-5) and (0,5) reside -5 and +5 space units to the left and right of Event (0,0), but zero time from it. In other words they are simultaneous with Event (0,0). My understanding is that they cannot have a causal relationship with Event (0,0), or each other, due to the finite speed of light.
 
Mikeal said:
Events (0,-5) and (0,5) reside -5 and +5 space units to the left and right of Event (0,0), but zero time from it. In other words they are simultaneous with Event (0,0). My understanding is that they cannot have a causal relationship with Event (0,0), or each other, due to the finite speed of light.
I was reacting to this
3) Shouldn't we just define the "elsewhere regions" as imaginary/not causally related and ignore the concept of "proper distance"?
which I mis-read as a 'ignore the elsewhere regions'.

I'm not sure what 'causal relationship' is. if I can send a signal to something that is space-like removed from me (at transmission time), and be sure that it will arrive sometime in both our futures - are we causally connected ?
 
Mentz114 said:
I'm not sure what 'causal relationship' is. if I can send a signal to something that is space-like removed from me (at transmission time), and be sure that it will arrive sometime in both our futures - are we causally connected ?
This doesn't make sense. "Timelike" separation and "spacelike" separation applies to pairs of events in spacetime. An event has both a time and a place. Objects are not events. Places are not events. So you cannot talk about "spacelike separated places" or "spacelike separated objects".

You can't send a signal towards an event that is spacelike-separated from you. You can send a signal to an event in the future. You can send a signal to a place (without specifying any time).
 
DrGreg said:
This doesn't make sense. "Timelike" separation and "spacelike" separation applies to pairs of events in spacetime. An event has both a time and a place. Objects are not events. Places are not events. So you cannot talk about "spacelike separated places" or "spacelike separated objects".

You can't send a signal towards an event that is spacelike-separated from you. You can send a signal to an event in the future. You can send a signal to a place (without specifying any time).

I was referring to pairs of events. I expressed it as
"if I can send a signal to something that is space-like removed from me (at transmission time)". So there is 'I' at (0,0) and the mirror at (0,5) . I can send a light pulse in the x-direction, which is a well-defined thing. How is that not towards the mirror ?

I may be sloppy in expressing things but not that sloppy.
 
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Mentz114 said:
I was referring to pairs of events. I expressed it as
"if I can send a signal to something that is space-like removed from me (at transmission time)". So there is 'I' at (0,0) and the mirror at (0,5) . I can send a light pulse in the x-direction, which is a well-defined thing. How is that not towards the mirror ?

I may be sloppy in expressing things but not that sloppy.
Yes, I understand what you mean. Perhaps a little correction?
You send definitely toward the mirror. Not at (0,5) but at (5,5). Still (??,5) if I may say.
 
Stephanus said:
Yes, I understand what you mean. Perhaps a little correction?
You send definitely toward the mirror. Not at (0,5) but at (5,5). Still (??,5) if I may say.

No. I shine the light in the +x direction. There is no direction but +x or -x in the ST diagram.
 
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