Spaghettification near event horizon

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of spaghettification near the event horizon of a black hole, particularly focusing on whether it can be avoided when inside the event horizon, especially in the context of supermassive black holes. Participants explore the gravitational forces, acceleration, and the effects of tidal forces as one approaches the singularity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether spaghettification can be avoided once inside the event horizon of a massive black hole, suggesting that it only occurs as one approaches the singularity.
  • There is a debate about the nature of acceleration at the event horizon, with some arguing that it increases without bound as one approaches the horizon, while others assert that crossing the event horizon of a supermassive black hole is not noticeable.
  • Participants discuss the formula for gravitational acceleration and its implications, with some expressing confusion over how acceleration behaves near the event horizon.
  • One participant mentions the concept of tidal acceleration, noting that it is small for human-sized objects near a large black hole.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of hovering above the event horizon and the forces experienced, with some suggesting that high g-forces could lead to spaghettification or other effects depending on how the force is applied.
  • One participant introduces the 'ouch' radius concept, which relates to tidal forces and suggests that it can occur outside the event horizon for small black holes but inside for supermassive black holes.
  • Another participant raises the issue of defining speed for objects inside the event horizon, indicating that there is no invariant way to assign speed in that region.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects experienced at the event horizon and the nature of acceleration, indicating that multiple competing views remain. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the implications of acceleration and spaghettification near the event horizon.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in understanding arise from the complexity of general relativity and the nature of spacetime near black holes. Participants highlight the need for a deeper understanding of Schwarzschild geometry and the mathematical formulations involved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying black hole physics, general relativity, or anyone curious about the effects of extreme gravitational fields on objects approaching a black hole.

  • #31
PeterDonis said:
Still wrong. If you're getting any answer other than the one I gave, you're doing it wrong. This calculation has been done thousands of times by physicists and students in GR. Please consult a textbook.
[..]
$$
a = \frac{GM}{r^2 \sqrt{1 - \frac{2GM}{c^2 r}}} = \frac{GM}{r \sqrt{r^2 - \frac{2GM}{c^2} r}} = \frac{G M c}{r \sqrt{c^2 r^2 - 2 G M r}}
$$

Plugging in ##r = 2GM/c^2## then gives

$$
a = \frac{G M c}{\left( \frac{2GM}{c^2} \right) \sqrt{c^2 \left( \frac{2GM}{c^2} \right)^2 - 2 G M \left( \frac{2GM}{c^2} \right)}} = \frac{G M c^3}{2 G M \sqrt{ \frac{4 G^2 M^2}{c^2} - \frac{4 G^2 M^2}{c^2} }} = \frac{c^4}{4 G M \sqrt{1 - 1}}
$$

Note that if we choose units so ##c = 1## and ##G = 1##, this is identical to what I gave before. Also, of course, it is undefined.
Come on PeterDonis.
Is this wrong?
##\frac{c^4}{4GM\sqrt{1-c^2}}##
and yours
##\frac{c^4}{4GM\sqrt{1-1}}##
But I didn't change c to 1. Still needs time to understand why we can substitute c with 1 (or even G with 1).
I made some error in calculating 2GM^2.
##2GM^2 = 2G^2M^2## it should be ##4G^2M^2## that's why I make a wrong calculation.
And it's not ##2GM^2## it's ##(2GM)^2##.
 
Last edited:
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  • #34
PeterDonis said:
[..]Because that just amounts to a choice of units. You already understand what it means to set ##c = 1##; it just means we're measuring speeds in units of ##c##, so the speed of light is ##1##. Setting ##G = 1## means we are measuring mass in units of length; ##G / c^2## is just a conversion factor from ordinary units of mass to mass in length units. So the mass of the Earth, for example, instead of being about ##6 \times 10^{24}## kg, is about 4.5 millimeters in these units (called "geometric units").[..]
Okay, let's see if I can change G =1 and c = 1
##G = 6.674×10−11 N⋅m2/kg2##
in unit
##G = (kg⋅\frac{m}{s^2}) ⋅m2/kg2##
##G = \frac{m^3}{s^2⋅kg} ##

##c = 300,000,000m/s##
in unit
##c = m/s##
##\frac{G}{c^2} = \frac{6.674⋅10^{-11}\frac{m^3}{s^2⋅kg}}{\frac{9⋅10^16m^2}{s^2}}##

##\frac{G}{c^2} = \frac{6.674⋅10^{-11}m}{9⋅10^{16}⋅kg}##

##\frac{G}{c^2} = \frac{7.41556⋅10^{-28}m}{kg}##

Earth mass = 6 x 1024 Kg
I don't even know why we should multiply or divide Earth mass with G/c2
Okay, I choose multiply
##6 * 10^{24} Kg * \frac{7.41556⋅10^{-28}m}{kg}##
##6 * 10^{24} * 7.41556⋅10^{-28}m##
##44.49 * 10^{-4}m = 4.449 mm## Okay...
I imagine we divide mass of the Earth with this unit, not multiply it.
Perhaps it's the same if we have a car that can runs 100km/s
And we say, what is 20 seconds according to you.
Then we multiply 20 seconds with Carspeed, then we'll say 20 seconds for my car is 200 km.
Or perhaps
There are two towns, 500 km apart. What is the distance of the towns.
Then we divide 500 km with Carspeed, then we'll say the distance of the towns is 5 seconds for my car.
I have to think it over, still don't get it fully.
 
  • #35
I think G/c^2 is half of Schwarzschild radius.
If we multiply the mass of an (planetary) object with this unit, we'll get acceleration at that distance. But distance must in the format of
Distance/300000000
if We multiply the mass of that object with twice of this unit, we'll get its schwarzschild radius
I'll try to understand it deeper.
 
  • #36
Stephanus said:
Is this wrong?

Yes. Look at it; it's not the same as what I wrote, is it? That means it's wrong.

Stephanus said:
But I didn't change c to 1.

Neither did I in the equation you referred to here. In the post you quoted, I did the entire derivation without changing ##c## to 1, leaving it as ##c## in all the formulas. And I got ##c^4 / 4 G M \sqrt{1 - 1}##; not ##c^4 / 4 G M \sqrt{1 - c^2}##. So what you wrote is wrong. Go back and check your algebra again. Or look carefully at what I posted and see how it goes, step by step.

Stephanus said:
I imagine we divide mass of the Earth with this unit, not multiply it.

Why would you imagine that, since you just got the right answer by multiplying? You just figured out the right answer, and now you're throwing it away?

Stephanus said:
I think G/c^2 is half of Schwarzschild radius.

No, it isn't. It is a conversion factor from ordinary units to geometric units. Think of it as ##G / c^2## meters per kilogram. You have a number in kilograms, like the mass of the Earth; you want to know what it is in meters; so you multiply the number in kilograms by the conversion factor, ##G / c^2## meters per kilogram, to get the number in meters.

If you want to say that, for a given mass ##M##, the distance ##GM / c^2## is half the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole of mass ##M##, that would be correct. But the distance ##GM / c^2## can be used much more generally than just in a scenario with black holes. In GR, that distance is the mass in geometric units, the same way the distance ##ct## is the time ##t## in natural relativistic units.

Stephanus said:
If we multiply the mass of an (planetary) object with this unit, we'll get acceleration at that distance.

I have no idea where you're getting this from. It's wrong. You don't get an acceleration, you get a distance. See above.
 

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