Speed of a hanging rope sliding on a nail (using energy conservation)

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on solving the problem of a hanging rope sliding on a nail using both Newton's second law and mechanical energy conservation. The user successfully derived the velocity of the rope segment using Newton's second law, resulting in the equation \( v=(x-l)\sqrt{\frac{g}{l}} \). However, they encountered difficulties in applying energy conservation principles, particularly in defining initial and final gravitational potential energy (GPE) expressions for both sides of the rope. The conversation emphasizes the importance of correctly identifying the center of mass and ensuring consistency in GPE calculations.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Newton's second law of motion
  • Familiarity with gravitational potential energy (GPE) concepts
  • Knowledge of energy conservation principles in physics
  • Ability to perform calculus operations, particularly integration
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation of gravitational potential energy in varying systems
  • Learn about the center of mass calculations in dynamic systems
  • Explore advanced applications of Newton's laws in non-linear motion
  • Investigate the implications of energy conservation in mechanical systems
USEFUL FOR

Physics students, educators, and anyone interested in classical mechanics, particularly those studying dynamics and energy conservation principles in mechanical systems.

TheGreatDeadOne
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Homework Statement
A rope of full length 2l hangs balanced on a smooth nail, length l on each side. A small impulse causes the rope starts to slide over the nail. Get the string speed module at the moment when it hangs with length x on one side and 2l - x on the other. Disregard the nail dimensions and assume x> l.
Relevant Equations
.
I solved this problem easily using Newton's second law, but I had problems trying to use mechanical energy conservation to solve it.
How I solved using Newton's second law:
##\text{(part of the rope that is on the left)}\, m_1=x\rho g,\, \text{(part of the rope that is on the right)}\, m_2=(2l-x)\rho ##
$$ F=x\rho g - (2l-x)\rho g=2(x-l)g\rho $$
$$ \Rightarrow \frac{dF}{dt}=m\frac{dv}{dt} =2l\rho\frac{dv}{dt} $$
Thus,
$$\frac{dv}{dt}=\frac{x-l}{l}g, \quad \mbox{by the chain rule:} \quad \frac{dv}{dt}=\frac{dv}{dx}\frac{dx}{dt}=v\frac{dv}{dx}$$
Replacing and integrating:
$$\int s\frac{dv}{dx}=\int \frac{x-l}{l}g \, dx \Rightarrow\frac{g}{l}\frac{(x-l)^2}{2}=\frac{v^2}{2}+C$$

For ##x=l\, \rightarrow v=0##, then C=0, so:

$$\boxed {v=(x-l)\sqrt{\frac{g}{l}} }$$

Now for conservation of energy I had trouble writing the relations. What I've tried to do so far:
(Assuming the nail is at a distance h from the ground, and h>l)

For the left side \begin{align}
E_{iL}& = l\rho g (h-l) \\
E_{fL}&=(x)\rho g (h-l-x) +(x)\rho \frac{v^2}{2}
\end{align}

For the right side \begin{align}
E_{iR}& = l\rho g (h-l) \\
E_{fR}&=(2l-x)\rho g (h-2l+x) +(2l-x)\rho \frac{v^2}{2}
\end{align}

And as I wrote above, it is very wrong. The problems I'm having are as follows:

1) Should I consider when the rope reaches its length and falls to the ground?
2) Should I consider potential gravitational energy when the string is in balance or not?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You are making extra work for yourself by worrying about where the ground is. Much simpler to take the height of the nail as the zero height.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban
haruspex said:
You are making extra work for yourself by worrying about where the ground is. Much simpler to take the height of the nail as the zero height.
You're right! It's as simple as that. But, the logic used to express the initial and final energies do you think is right?
 
TheGreatDeadOne said:
You're right! It's as simple as that. But, the logic used to express the initial and final energies do you think is right?
We can take the equations you wrote and substitute h=0.
In (1) and (3), what is the initial height of the mass centre of each side?
In (2), you have a factor x(l-x) in the GPE term, but it is (l-x)2 in (4). Do you see the asymmetry? Note that substituting x=l and v=0 in (2) and (4) should produce (1) and (3).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: TheGreatDeadOne
haruspex said:
We can take the equations you wrote and substitute h=0.
In (1) and (3), what is the initial height of the mass centre of each side?
In (2), you have a factor x(l-x) in the GPE term, but it is (l-x)2 in (4). Do you see the asymmetry? Note that substituting x=l and v=0 in (2) and (4) should produce (1) and (3).
"In (1) and (3), what is the initial height of the mass center of each side?"

I was trying to calculate from the end of the string, but really from the center of mass it seems a lot simpler.

"In (2), you have a factor x (l-x) in the GPE term, but it is (l-x)^2 in (4). Do you see the asymmetry? Note that substituting x = l and v = 0 in (2) and (4) should produce (1) and (3) "

I saw this, I was trying to describe that when one side of the rope slips, the length of the other side decreases and the mass of rope on that side decreases too.
Thank you again!
 
Not sure that you got either of the points I was making.
TheGreatDeadOne said:
I was trying to calculate from the end of the string, but really from the center of mass it seems a lot simpler.
If we take the nail as height zero, what is the initial height of the mass centres of the two halves of the string? So what are their initial GPEs?
TheGreatDeadOne said:
I was trying to describe that when one side of the rope slips, the length of the other side decreases and the mass of rope on that side decreases too.
Your two expressions for the GPEs when one string has length x are inconsistent. Either (2) or (4) must be wrong.
After you have got equations (1) and (3) right, check (2) and (4) by plugging in x=l and v=0. If (2) and (4) are right then the resulting equations should be (1) and (3).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: TheGreatDeadOne
It is interesting to calculate the reaction force from the nail to the rope. The loop of the rope can detach off the nail and jump
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: TheGreatDeadOne

Similar threads

  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
1K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
958
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
627
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
1K