Spinning Light: How Does it Work With No Mass?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of a spinning mechanism exposed to light within a vacuum, specifically questioning how it can spin if photons are massless. Participants explore various explanations, including the roles of momentum, heat energy, and the conditions of the vacuum.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the spinning is due to the momentum of photons, which do not require mass to exert force.
  • Others suggest that heat energy might be a factor, with the idea that a difference in color on the metal sheet could lead to uneven heating and thus spinning.
  • A participant mentions that in a true vacuum, heat would not contribute to the spinning, indicating a need for air for convection to occur.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of momentum, with some asserting that it exists independently of mass, while others express confusion about its relationship to mass and velocity.
  • One participant references the concept of solar sails, suggesting that light pressure can be used for propulsion, which raises questions about the applicability of this idea to the spinning mechanism discussed.
  • Another participant identifies the Crookes radiometer as a related apparatus, explaining that its movement is due to molecular flow rather than light pressure in a perfect vacuum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mechanisms at play, with no consensus reached on whether momentum, heat, or other factors are primarily responsible for the spinning. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of a perfect vacuum on the phenomenon.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made about the vacuum conditions and the definitions of momentum and heat energy, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

MNC007
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Imagine a glass sphere container. You took all the air inside so you have vacuum. Inside you have a very thin metal sheet that is mounted on an equator axis, so it is allowed to rotate. If you expose the mecanism to ligth it will spin...What´´s happening? howcome it spins if the photon doesn´t have mass?
 
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I think it is heat energy that causes the thing to spin.

It may be that one side has to be colored darker then the other to cause it to spin.

Not sure if we are thinking of the same apparatus.
 
Welcome to PF!

Hi MNC007! Welcome to PF! :wink:
MNC007 said:
howcome it spins if the photon doesn´t have mass?

The photon has momentum, which is all that is needed …

in principle, you could sail a spacecraft away from the Sun relying on "light pressure". :smile:

(btw, any such device probably still has enough air inside for there to be currents, or even for pressure from air on the hot side to be enough to turn it)
 
nitsuj said:
I think it is heat energy that causes the thing to spin.

It may be that one side has to be colored darker then the other to cause it to spin.

Not sure if we are thinking of the same apparatus.

i think so... but in order to be a thermal mechanism it could only be convection and for that you would need air.
 
cool, I never thought of heat like that. heat is a "state" not something on it's own.

I can see now that in a true vaccum, heat would have nothing to do with it.

I guess mass and momentum aren't directly related in the sense I thought.

I thought momentum was a consiquence of mass & velocity. Perhaps it is just a consiquence of velocity.
 
welcome to pf!

hi nitsuj! welcome to pf! :smile:
nitsuj said:
… I thought momentum was a consiquence of mass & velocity. Perhaps it is just a consiquence of velocity.

momentum isn't a consequence of anything, momentum just is

momentum is 3 of the 4 coordinates of the energy-momentum of a body

photons are created with energy and momentum already installed and running :wink:
 
Hi tiny-tim, Thanks!
so... a massless particle can have momentum. i thougth the sailing example only apllied to sun wind (ie sun particles) and not light... i think i´ve got it but i´m still kinda confused. my phisics are pretty basic..
 
MNC007 said:
Hi tiny-tim, Thanks!
so... a massless particle can have momentum. i thougth the sailing example only apllied to sun wind (ie sun particles) and not light... i think i´ve got it but i´m still kinda confused. my phisics are pretty basic..

Please start by reading the FAQ thread in the General Physics forum.

Zz.
 
Hi tiny-tim, Thanks!
so... a massless particle can have momentum. i thougth the sailing example only apllied to sun wind (ie sun particles) and not light... i think i´ve got it but i´m still kinda confused. my phisics are pretty basic..

Yep, we actually have a spacecraft that has already used this method of propulsion, the IKAROS spacecraft .
See here for more info on the Solar Sail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
 
  • #10
My guess is that you're referring to Crookes radiometers. The internal movement is due to the molecules in a particle (not full) vacuum) flowing from the cooler brighter sides of the vanes to the hotter darker sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer
 
  • #11
rcgldr said:
My guess is that you're referring to Crookes radiometers. The internal movement is due to the molecules in a particle (not full) vacuum) flowing from the cooler brighter sides of the vanes to the hotter darker sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer

That´s it! So the reason it moves is because it is not in a perfect vaccuum... It still has enougth air for the convection effect. Probably the same experience with perfect vacuum would not work... unless the photons had enough momentum to move it.
 

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