Square of an integral containing a Green's Function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical expression for the square of a tensor component involving a Green's function and its implications in a physical context. Participants explore the correct formulation of this expression and its dependence on the properties of the Green's function, with a focus on the implications for free energy in materials under shear.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a tensor component defined by a double derivative of an integral involving a Green's function and a well-behaved function, questioning the correct expression for its square.
  • Another participant clarifies that the square of the tensor component is defined as the sum over indices after squaring the individual elements.
  • Concerns are raised about the dependence of the expression on the properties of the Green's function, with some participants suggesting that integrating over one variable may lead to the loss of the second Green's function.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the correct formulation of the square of the tensor component, comparing two different expressions and discussing their implications.
  • There is a suggestion to contact the authors of the referenced paper for clarification, noting the age of the publication.
  • A participant provides a specific example using Cartesian coordinates to illustrate their understanding of the tensor component and its square.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct formulation of the square of the tensor component. Multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation and implications of the expressions discussed.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the properties of the Green's function and how they affect the formulation of the tensor component's square. Participants acknowledge the potential for missing assumptions or identities related to the Green's function.

Celeritas
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TL;DR
Square of an integral containing a Green's Function.
Let's say you have a tensor u with the following components:
$$u_{ij}=\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')dr'$$
Where G is a Green function, and g is just a normal well behaved function. My question is what is the square of this component? is it
$${u_{ij}}^2=\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')dr'\bigg]\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r''}G(r,r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]$$
or is it
$${u_{ij}}^2=\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')dr'\bigg]\bigg[{\nabla_i}'{\nabla_j}'\int_{r''}G(r',r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]$$

The first one makes much more sense to me, but I'm trying to reproduce results from a paper and it appears that they have used the second one. Any help is appreciated.

EDIT:
I'm sorry but it appears I have written the second one wrong. What I mean is:
$${u_{ij}}^2=\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')\bigg[{\nabla_i}'{\nabla_j}'\int_{r''}G(r',r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]dr'$$
I understand that r and r'' are dummy variables, but my problem is writing G in the second integral as G(r',r'') and not G(r,r''). To me it should be the latter because after integrating I should have something depending on r and not r'. If it depends on r' then the result of the second integral will contribute to the first integral (which is over r').
 
Last edited:
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Celeritas said:
I'm sorry but it appears I have written the second one wrong. What I mean is:
$${u_{ij}}^2=\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')\bigg[{\nabla_i}'{\nabla_j}'\int_{r''}G(r',r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]dr'$$
I understand that r and r'' are dummy variables, but my problem is writing G in the second integral as G(r',r'') and not G(r,r''). To me it should be the latter because after integrating I should have something depending on r and not r'. If it depends on r' then the result of the second integral will contribute to the first integral (which is over r').
Yes, I wondered what happened!

There's clearly something missing here. What is ##u_{ij}^2##? Is it really ##(u^2)_{ij}##?
 
PeroK said:
Yes, I wondered what happened!

There's clearly something missing here. What is ##u_{ij}^2##? Is it really ##(u^2)_{ij}##?
##{u_{ij}}^2## is the square of the element ##u_{ij}##. Afterwards one sums over i and j.
In physics, this would give (along with some additional unimportant terms) the free energy contribution of pure shear on a material.
 
Celeritas said:
##{u_{ij}}^2## is the square of the element ##u_{ij}##. Afterwards one sums over i and j.
In physics, this would give (along with some additional unimportant terms) the free energy contribution of pure shear on a material.
I wonder if it's an identity that depends on the properties of the Green's function?
 
PeroK said:
I wonder if it's an identity that depends on the properties of the Green's function?
Maybe, but after integrating over dr'', you essentially lose the second green function and are left with G(r,r')g(r')f(r') where f(r') is the result of the integral over dr''. I don't see how any property of Green's function will do anything about that!
But my main concern was that is my way of looking at this term correct? i.e. is this one correct?
$${u_{ij}}^2=\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')dr'\bigg]\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r''}G(r,r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]$$
I will also try to contact the authors but the paper is 22 years old!
 
Celeritas said:
Maybe, but after integrating over dr'', you essentially lose the second green function and are left with G(r,r')g(r')f(r') where f(r') is the result of the integral over dr''. I don't see how any property of Green's function will do anything about that!
But my main concern was that is my way of looking at this term correct? i.e. is this one correct?
$${u_{ij}}^2=\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r'}G(r,r')g(r')dr'\bigg]\bigg[\nabla_i\nabla_j\int_{r''}G(r,r'')g(r'')dr''\bigg]$$
I will also try to contact the authors but the paper is 22 years old!
That expression is correct by definition. There must be some way to equate it to the other. Unless we are missing something there must be a Green's function property behind this.

I haven't see this before, so I can't help any further. Sorry.
 
PeroK said:
That expression is correct by definition. There must be some way to equate it to the other. Unless we are missing something there must be a Green's function property behind this.

I haven't see this before, so I can't help any further. Sorry.
Thank you. You've helped plenty.
 
I assume that ##\nabla_i=\frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}##. For the Cartesian coordinate system$$x_1=x\\
x_2=y\\
x_3=z\\
r=\sqrt{x_1^2+x_2^2+x_3^2}\\
r'=\sqrt{x_1^{'2}+x_2^{'2}+x_3^{'2}}$$I would think that, for example$$
u_{xz}=\int_{r'}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x \partial z}G(r,r')g(r')dr'$$ and that,$$u_{xz}^2=[\int_{r'}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x \partial z}G(r,r')g(r')dr'][\int_{r'}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x \partial z}G(r,r')g(r')dr']$$
 
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