Stable Knots in 4D: Proof and Directionality

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of stable knots in four-dimensional space, particularly focusing on whether a stable knot made of one-dimensional curves can exist in 4D. Participants explore the implications of moving in a fourth dimension and the conditions under which knots can be untied or remain stable, touching on theoretical aspects and mathematical proofs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a stable knot made of 1D curves cannot exist in 4D, as it can always be untied by moving in the fourth dimension, while knots can be stable using 2D surfaces.
  • One participant references a Wikipedia article that provides a mathematical proof for the claim that any closed loop of one-dimensional string in 4D is equivalent to an unknot, describing a two-step deformation process.
  • Another participant questions the validity of discussing untying a 4D knot if movement in the fourth dimension is restricted to one direction, suggesting that it complicates the concept of untying.
  • A different perspective is offered by a participant who describes a specific example involving strings crossing in 3D and how this can be manipulated in 4D, emphasizing the ability to slide strings without obstruction.
  • One participant introduces a heuristic rule regarding codimensions, stating that two manifolds can be knotted when their codimensions add to -1, providing a mathematical framework for understanding knotting in different dimensions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of stable knots in 4D, with some agreeing on the impossibility of 1D knots while others explore conditions that may allow for different interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of movement in the fourth dimension and the validity of various proofs and examples presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the proofs and concepts, including the need for further clarification on mathematical steps and the implications of dimensional movement on knot stability.

Saltlick
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I've seen the statement repeated in many places that a stable knot comprising 1D curves cannot be created in 4D, since it's always possible to untie the knot by moving in the 4th dimension (whereas it is possible to create a stable knot in 4D using 2D surfaces). Can anyone point me to an authorative source for the proof of this statement (ideally available online)?

Also, is anyone aware whether this statement remains true if the 4th dimension allows movement in only one direction (e.g. it represents time)? Intuitively I would guess that it wouldn't.
 
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Saltlick said:
I've seen the statement repeated in many places that a stable knot comprising 1D curves cannot be created in 4D, since it's always possible to untie the knot by moving in the 4th dimension (whereas it is possible to create a stable knot in 4D using 2D surfaces). Can anyone point me to an authorative source for the proof of this statement (ideally available online)?...

Here's the key paragraph from the WikiP article
"In four dimensions, any closed loop of one-dimensional string is equivalent to an unknot. We can achieve the necessary deformation in two steps. The first step is to 'push' the loop into a three-dimensional subspace, which is always possible, though technical to explain. The second step is changing crossings. Suppose one strand is behind another as seen from a chosen point. Lift it into the fourth dimension, so there is no obstacle (the front strand having no component there); then slide it forward, and drop it back, now in front. An analogy for the plane would be lifting a string up off the surface."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_theory

I wouldn't say WikiP is reliably authoritative, various articles I've looked at had misleading stuff. But this particular article seems OK, and what they say here is actually a short mathematical proof. You can see how it works. So in some sense we don't need to rely on authority in this case. For context, if you need help understanding the proof, you might look at the rest of the article.
 
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saltlick if you can only move in one direction in that dimension it doesn't really make sense to speak of untying a 4D knot, right?

The prove you look for is elementary so I don't know where to find it. If you look at the two dimensional projection of the knot distinguishing over and under crossings you get a link diagram. The three reidemeister moves take any diagram of one knot into that of the same know in 3D (and thus in 4D) but in 4D you can change undercrossings for overcrossing by the process you described. But now it is clear that all knots are equivalent to the unknot by the following procedure: Take a loop at the perimeter of the diagram. Remove all internal edges except for one using Reidemeister move III then remove the loop (first changing an undercrossing to an overcrossing if necessary) by a type I move, this will remove one or two loops from the diagram. Rinse repeat until you are either left with one loop, that is, the unknot.
 
Hi Saltlick! :smile:

Here's another way of looking at it:

Look at two strings along the x and y axes, crossing each other at O, with the x-axis string on top.

Make a sphere around O, and deform the x-axis string in the x-z plane so that it goes round the top hemisphere of the sphere.

In 3D, you can't slide it round onto the mirror-image position on the bottom hemisphere because the positions through which it slides form a simply connected (2D) surface whose boundary is the vertical great circle in the x-z plane, which means it must be one vertical hemisphere or the other, which means that it includes one of the two points where the y-axis string crosses the sphere.

But in 4D, you can slide it, because the slidey surface is still connected and 2D, and it only has two points it must miss, which is easy! :smile:
 
Codimensions add to -1

The heuristic rule is that two manifolds can be knotted when their codimensions add to -1. An n-dim manifold embedded in d-dim ambient space has codim d-n. Generically, the intersection between manifolds of dim m and n has codim (d-m) + (d-n) = 2d-m-n, and is thus a manifold with dimension k = m+n-d. If k = -1 the manifolds do not intersect (generically) but are knotted. In particular, if m = n = 1, k = -1 if d = 3.
 

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