Static vs Kinetic Friction on an Unbanked Ramp

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of static and kinetic friction in the context of a car moving on an unbanked ramp. Participants are exploring the conditions under which static friction is applicable compared to kinetic friction, particularly in relation to centripetal force and rolling motion.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning the use of static versus kinetic friction in the context of a car's motion on a ramp. There is an exploration of the roles of friction in enabling rolling without slipping and providing centripetal force. Some participants express confusion about the conditions that define static friction.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants providing insights into the roles of static and kinetic friction. Some have offered clarifications regarding the conditions for static friction, while others are still grappling with the implications of these concepts in the problem context. Multiple interpretations of the frictional forces involved are being explored.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted misunderstanding regarding the definitions and applications of static and kinetic friction, particularly in relation to the motion of a car on a ramp. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding the conditions under which each type of friction applies.

mancity
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Homework Statement
A car with a mass of 1000 kg is moving on an un-banked ramp with a radius of 100 m. What is the maximum speed the car can move without skidding if the coefficients of static and kinetic friction are 0.80 and 0.60 respectively?
Relevant Equations
mgμ=mv^2/r
I used kinetic friction and did mgμ_k=mv^2/r. However, the solution is mgμ_s=mv^2/r. I am confused on why we consider static friction and not kinetic friction, thanks!
 
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mancity said:
I am confused on why we consider static friction and not kinetic friction, thanks!
It is a common misunderstanding.
Friction is about relative motion of surfaces in contact. Kinetic friction occurs when there is such relative motion; static occurs when there is no such relative motion, only the potential for it.
If a wheel is not skidding ("rolling contact") then there is no relative motion. The part of the wheel touching a road has, instantaneously, zero velocity.
 
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Here the friction has double role. Besides enabling the rolling without slipping, which applies even when the car moves along a straight road, the friction provides the centripetal force for the circular motion. "Skidding" here refers to the case when the friction is not enough to provide the centripetal force for the car to move in a circle of the given radius with the given velocity. In this case the car moves outwards from the center. You are looking for the situation when this does not happen and the car does not move along the radial direction and the component of the friction acting along the radial direction provides the centripetal force. No motion along the radial direction means that the radial component of friction is static.
There is a tangential component of friction that ensures rolling without slipping. This is also static, as described by @haruspex.
 
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nasu said:
There is a tangential component of friction that ensures rolling without slipping.
Only if there is tangential acceleration. This is important since any tangential frictional force contributes to the total frictional force, thereby "using up" some of the available ##\mu_sN## and reducing the max speed.
 
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