Story where a scientist definitively proves there is no god

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a short story in which a scientist definitively proves the non-existence of God and an afterlife, exploring the implications and challenges of such a narrative. Participants share ideas for a McGuffin that could serve as the basis for this proof, while also considering the philosophical and narrative consequences of the premise.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that it is inherently impossible to definitively disprove the existence of God or an afterlife, which could complicate the story's premise.
  • One idea proposed is that the scientist discovers everyone is living in a computer simulation, raising questions about reality and existence.
  • Another participant argues that the nature of consciousness could be explored to suggest the absence of a soul, though this does not provide a definitive proof.
  • Some participants emphasize that the story does not need to provide a detailed explanation for the proof, as readers often accept fantastical elements in fiction without requiring scientific validation.
  • There is a suggestion that the narrative could focus on the aftermath of the proof, exploring societal reactions and the psychological impact on individuals.
  • Another viewpoint is that to prove non-existence, one must define attributes of God and show contradictions with known truths.
  • Some participants express that the honest scientific approach is to leave the question of God's existence open, acknowledging the limits of proof in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on how to approach the story's premise, with multiple competing views on the feasibility of proving non-existence and the narrative implications of such a proof.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the challenge of defining what constitutes proof of non-existence and the philosophical implications of such a claim, as well as the potential for offending personal beliefs among readers.

  • #31
mfb said:
Scandinavian countries are a good large-scale counterexample.

Scandinavian countries (my cousins I should add) are not Appalachia or Saudi Arabia. Scandinavian countries have something that is unique in the world: clear memories and written records of the gods and religion that Christianity replaced. they also have clear memories and written records of what a bloody mess replacing the Aesir with Christianity was. The point that needs to be considered in this forum is what a bloody mess the transition could-- or probably would--be.

fresh_42 said:
You're kidding, don't you? Otherwise I read this as an insult on atheists.

You'll be happy to know that the protagonist is an atheist who is tired of being insulted. The problem is that insulted atheists are just as capable of doing stupid, ill-advised things as any snake-handling bible-thumper from the Smokies.
 
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  • #32
Khatti said:
The problem is that insulted atheists are just as capable of doing stupid, ill-advised things as any snake-handling bible-thumper from the Smokies.
One thing I've learned in life: each group of people, how ever you may define it, has it's right to contain idiots. That is sometimes forgotten when we try to be too PC.
 
  • #33
fresh_42 said:
esuna said:
Belief in God is what keeps a lot of people from doing terrible things.
You're kidding, don't you? Otherwise I read this as an insult on atheists.
You shouldn't.

Rephrased:

Belief in God is what keeps a lot of people [who need that sort of thing] from doing terrible things. Those who don't need it don't do terrible things because their right/wrong compass is internalized.
 
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  • #34
DaveC426913 said:
You shouldn't.
I know. Beside the not to be underestimated placebo effect of comfort in tragic situations it's my favorite argument for the need of religions, too. However, meanwhile I can't suppress the fact anymore, how many really evil crimes have been and are committed in the name of a religion. Just turn on an arbitrary news channel. I'm not sure anymore if the calculation works out.
 
  • #35
fresh_42 said:
I know. Beside the not to be underestimated placebo effect of comfort in tragic situations it's my favorite argument for the need of religions, too. However, meanwhile I can't suppress the fact anymore, how many really evil crimes have been and are committed in the name of a religion. Just turn on an arbitrary news channel. I'm not sure anymore if the calculation works out.

Can we stop focussing on the evil or greatness of religions? It's strictly forbidden on PF for very good reasons. I was hoping we would get some more answers on the OP's question, but perhaps this thread needs to be locked...
 
  • #36
fresh_42 said:
how many really evil crimes have been and are committed in the name of a religion.
That's called confirmation bias. When is the last time you heard of a crime being committed in the name of atheism?

Have you heard the myth that more babies are born during a full Moon? Well, how many people, upon the birth of their baby, look up and say 'huh, my baby was born during a waxing gibbous! What're the odds?'

[EDIT] Oops. Yeah. We got to get off the religion-bashing topic.
 
  • #37
DaveC426913 said:
[EDIT] Oops. Yeah. We got to get off the religion-bashing topic.
Sure.
 
  • #38
micromass said:
Can we stop focussing on the evil or greatness of religions? It's strictly forbidden on PF for very good reasons. I was hoping we would get some more answers on the OP's question, but perhaps this thread needs to be locked...

Yeah...it is quite conceivable that I opened the can of worms before I wanted too. Sorry to all involved.
 
  • #39
I half remember a story like this I read in my youth. It was a minor plot point, basically a scientist had (about a generation before) discovered a theory of everything that adequately explains the origin of the universe and everything in it. There were still religious people but less of them. Anyone who took the time to study the TOE realized that there was no need for God.

But that's rather simplistic as others have said. Whilst many people may have become atheists by learning more about the world many haven't.

Perhaps one way for the story to work would actually be the opposite: discover that there is a God but that it is nothing like any human concept of God and has nothing to say about human lives.
 
  • #40
DaveC426913 said:
When is the last time you heard of a crime being committed in the name of atheism?

Get enough people sufficiently radicalized and that time will come too.
 
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  • #41
Khatti said:
Scandinavian countries have something that is unique in the world: clear memories and written records of the gods and religion that Christianity replaced.

Unlike, say, Rome or Greece?
 
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  • #42
Vanadium 50 said:
Unlike, say, Rome or Greece?

True--bad, careless Khatti! The Greeks and Italians had a great deal of say in how Christianity was constructed. I often wonder to what extent the Catholic Church is as much a creation of Caesar as it is of Christ. Scandinavian choices were of the "Join or die" variety.
 
  • #43
Khatti said:
True--bad, careless Khatti! The Greeks and Italians had a great deal of say in how Christianity was constructed. I often wonder to what extent the Catholic Church is as much a creation of Caesar as it is of Christ. Scandinavian choices were of the "Join or die" variety.
Julius Caesar born 100 BC
Nero began the persecusion of the christians 64 AD
Theodosius declares Christianity the state religion 391 AD
 
  • #44
256bits said:
Julius Caesar born 100 BC
Nero began the persecusion of the christians 64 AD
Theodosius declares Christianity the state religion 391 AD

Caesar was the honorary name taken by many Roman Emperors. It even lived on beyond the Roman era as "Kaiser" in German, or "Tsar" in Russian.
 
  • #45
micromass said:
Caesar was the honorary name taken by many Roman Emperors. It even lived on beyond the Roman era as "Kaiser" in German, or "Tsar" in Russian.
Yes. Just showing it not all just Julius, since he is the most well known.
 
  • #46
micromass said:
Can we stop focussing on the evil or greatness of religions? It's strictly forbidden on PF for very good reasons. I was hoping we would get some more answers on the OP's question, but perhaps this thread needs to be locked...
Noo, keep it hot.
 
  • #47
There are specific falsifiable hypothesis in all religions. For example, Christians believe in a caring God based on His willingness to take on human form and human pain as Jesus Christ.

If the character had a time machine and observed Jesus using sleight of hand to feign his death and resurrection, this would disprove Christianity significantly enough for many devoted followers (myself at least) to abandon it completely. Curiously, the historical evidence one can obtain without a time machine is convincing enough that some have become Christians on account of it, as described https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007YXWPZE/?tag=pfamazon01-20. I don't know if it's fair to call it "investigative" but still an interesting read.

But if I were you I'd have him hop in a time machine and verify explicit deceptions in the origins of all the major religions. I imagine it could happen in a paragraph or two.
 
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  • #48
Go Whovian on us. A Dr. Who. Or Time Lord like The Master. Or like Heroes Reborn, a Master of Time and Space. Oh wait. That's been done already.
 
  • #49
Khatti, what about a time machine "camera" of sorts, where we can passively observe the future evolution of humans (both biological and technological) and that evolution leads to us mastering time, space and creation itself -- at which point we create the universe retroactively. We become our own God, pulling the Universe up by its own bootstraps. Maybe not what you're looking for but I think it would still have enormous social consequences, etc.
 
  • #50
rjbeery said:
at which point we create the universe retroactively. We become our own God, pulling the Universe up by its own bootstraps.
Unfortunately, that has been done to-death.

There's a publisher's list out there somewhere entitled 'plot ideas we don't ever want to read again' and I think that one is on it.
 
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  • #51
Personally I would have my main character be an average Joe who doesn't have the technical and scientific knowledge to understand the math or science behind the result, he just observes what's happening around him.
 
  • #52
The last person who successfully proved that God does not exist vanished from the universe, along with all references to him. Who were we talking about?
 
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  • #53
This thread has been answered in as many ways as possible and keeps straying onto religion, so it is closed.
 
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