Studying Physics Courses at 50 years old

[jlcd]

From experience, up to what age can the brain and neurons still able to study physics? Steven Weinberg is already 80+ years old. Is his brain still as good as when he was in the 20s?

If I begin undergraduate course in physics at 50 yrs old. How long before I can graduate as a PhD?

I want to focus on Beyond the Standard Model. There is gold mine there.

Also I just need to know some facts.

Is there any physicist who didn't get Ph.D. who won a Nobel Prize? Or are all Nobel Prize winners all have Ph.D.?

But supposed I got lucky and write a paper that produces a breakthough, and I am just a graduate of BS in Physics without Ph.D. Would I get a Nobel? Or would the Ph.D. not vote me because I wasn't a Ph.D? It's like they don't want somebody lesser than their degree to won a Nobel?

You may all tell me that it's one pipe dream to produce any breakthough much less get a Nobel. People can win 1.6 billion dollar lotto. So nothing is impossible. So just please answer the above. Thank you!

 

[Wrichik Basu]

Why are you after the Nobel Prize? Is it that you will not proceed to learn physics if you get to know that scientists are not eligible for nomination if they don't have a PhD? I haven't seen anyone running after the Prize at the level of UG. There are so many scientists around the world.

I don't understand your intentions. People study UG and PG levels to learn the basics, and then work at PhD and post-doc level to do research. Not for the Nobel (or for that matter, any) prize.

 

[PeroK]

Also I just need to know some facts.

Is there any physicist who didn't get Ph.D. who won a Nobel Prize? Or are all Nobel Prize winners all have Ph.D.?

Why don't you start your research by researching the previous winners of the Nobel Prize?

 

[member659127]

Unfortunately, things are not as simple as in the good old "romantic days" where patent officers changed the way we understood physics and people around 25's wrote the most influential physics papers of the world, etc...

Getting to the state of art speciality in any field requires learning more and more and hard work every single day. Not to break your spirit but even people who have PhD's at early ages typically reach their 40's even 50's until they have a solid understanding and grasp of their very own field of study.

But supposed I got lucky and write a paper that produces a breakthough

Writing is not the only thing, you have to find an editor who will not judge you by your credentials and affiliation. Those certainly help at that point. It is only possible if some specialist of the field stands behind you, but even she or he would require that you have some sort of degree...

For the Nobel, I don't think any of the laureates started their research by the sole motivation of the prize itself. They just focused on the thing they are doing and was simply very good at it... Many respected scientists who made great breakthroughs and certainly deserved did not receive one by the way. It certainly increases your popularity (and makes you a star) but does not affect your quality when you reach that level in your field. The unfortunate thing is only your colleagues will be aware of this...

 

[symbolipoint]

jlcd

Anyone aged ~50 year must know better than to expect to earn a Nobel Prize. Physics is for understanding, while some other sciences and especially Engineering are for getting employment as some type of "scientist" or engineer.

You wonder if beginning to study for undergrad and then continue to grad degree for Physics at age 50 is possible or a good idea. This depends on your other life-commitments and how hard you can study and for how long. If you wait until you reach age 60, you then would start TEN YEARS LATER. Could you handle that? Either way, how is your Mathematics right now?

 

[jlcd]

jlcd

Anyone aged ~50 year must know better than to expect to earn a Nobel Prize. Physics is for understanding, while some other sciences and especially Engineering are for getting employment as some type of "scientist" or engineer.

You wonder if beginning to study for undergrad and then continue to grad degree for Physics at age 50 is possible or a good idea. This depends on your other life-commitments and how hard you can study and for how long. If you wait until you reach age 60, you then would start TEN YEARS LATER. Could you handle that? Either way, how is your Mathematics right now?

I finished engineering in college 28 years ago. We only took calculus and I even forget them now. So I'll begin from scratch. My business is real estate leasing so I'm free most of the time. I just got married 2 years go and my wife just turned 42 years old and we don't have any kids. So the more I am free.

15 years ago. I should have started physics course. But I didn't do it thinking the physicists can just figure it out.

But the situation is so dire now. I don't want to one day waking up at 85 years old or 90 years old and seeing there is no major breakthrough in physics and most missing it and becoming so for the next century and more.

I can't state the exact reason why I know there should another level of breakthrough in physics in the horizon that even exceeds the Quantum and Relativistic revolution.

As for the Nobel Prize. It is not the real aim. The real aim is to share the knowledge to the entire world. And Nobel Prize is just secondary but inevitable. It's to encourage communications with other physicists and not working alone in secret. And to be encourage amidst the sacrifices.

However I don't really mind if others who follow me got the Nobel instead. What is important is making sure the next level of breakthrough will occur in this century.

It's ok to think this is an old man delusion.
But I have my reasons that would stand all scrutiny.

So just let me know at what age would I get the Ph.D. and can write and share arxiv papers that is on the level of Rovelli, etc.

Who is the oldest contributor there? How many who are 80s?

 

[pinball1970]

Nothing is as good as it is in your 80s as it was in your 20s! Same in your 50s, especially starting from scratch.
Probably best be realistic and learn for fun first then see how it goes, some very good book references on here from beginner through to very advanced.
For the record Peter Higgs won his Nobel in his 80s although the work he did for it was published 50 years earlier.
Another guy was 96!
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/facts/facts-on-the-nobel-prize-in-physics/

 

[MikeeMiracle]

I feel for you jlad. I am getting a hint that you have an idea and want to study to test it out. I also "dream" of a doing something similar but you really need an established person in the field to explain it to so they can then determine if it is feasible based on their current up to date knowledge of the subject. Without that established person, it's just an idea of yours. Who knows, you just might be onto something and you might be right. Your idea might offer a breakthrough like no other. It will just get dismissed though unless you can back it up with the maths though so it's likely no one would take you seriously. It might then get discovered / re-discovored by an established person in the field in 50-100 years who can do the backround research on it and they will get the credit.

Its all about the Maths. Even if your theory is unprovable by today's standards / equipment, if it's based on solid maths then it will get discussed.

 

[jlcd]

My dad is now 85 years old and only watch tv all day and living sedentary life.

I don't know how average 85 year old think. Anyone here? Can you still think of physics line of thoughts or is it like having the mind of 12 years old where you miss some parts? When you are 90 years old. Is it like Dementia?

If I don't study it. By 60 years old. My brain may degrade far already. They say if you don't use it.. you can lose it.

Maybe I should start by sitting in math classes in the university? Then work through physics courses.
What If i can only take online classes. Is it sufficient to get nominated for a Nobel?

I still prefer to get Nobel which has cash prize of about 1.3 million dollars for medical and retirement money when I reach the 80s and 90 years old.

 

[Choppy]

There's no reason you can't study physics at 50 or older. While cognitive abilities do decline with age, that doesn't mean that once a person is over 40 he or she is incapable of learning anything new or solving challenging problems. In fact, exercising your mind is probably one of the best things you can do to inhibit cognitive decline.

If you have the financial stability and the time to study something you're passionate about, go for it. The only way you'll really know if you're able to accomplish something is to try it an see.

As far as timelines go, assuming you're in a North American system and studying full time a bachelor's degree will take four years. Then going on to the PhD will take another four to six years. There are a lot of trials along the way and not everyone who goes for it, will make it. But your age won't be the limiting factor. In fact, in some ways it can be an advantage. Maturity and life experience can come into play in ways that are difficult to predict.

As for the Nobel-stuff, that's about as solid a retirement plan as buying lottery tickets. But I suspect you're already well aware of that.

 

[member659127]

In fact, in some ways it can be an advantage. Maturity and life experience can come into play in ways that are difficult to predict.

impossible to disagree with that...

 

[jlcd]

There's no reason you can't study physics at 50 or older. While cognitive abilities do decline with age, that doesn't mean that once a person is over 40 he or she is incapable of learning anything new or solving challenging problems. In fact, exercising your mind is probably one of the best things you can do to inhibit cognitive decline.

If you have the financial stability and the time to study something you're passionate about, go for it. The only way you'll really know if you're able to accomplish something is to try it an see.

As far as timelines go, assuming you're in a North American system and studying full time a bachelor's degree will take four years. Then going on to the PhD will take another four to six years. There are a lot of trials along the way and not everyone who goes for it, will make it. But your age won't be the limiting factor. In fact, in some ways it can be an advantage. Maturity and life experience can come into play in ways that are difficult to predict.

As for the Nobel-stuff, that's about as solid a retirement plan as buying lottery tickets. But I suspect you're already well aware of that.

I don't know if university would still accept me. My classmates would be 17 year olds.. lol.

Is there any online college course where one can study it at home?

If there is. What is the best online school or university out there?

Please enumerate. Thanks.

 

[ZapperZ]

From experience, up to what age can the brain and neurons still able to study physics? Steven Weinberg is already 80+ years old. Is his brain still as good as when he was in the 20s?

If I begin undergraduate course in physics at 50 yrs old. How long before I can graduate as a PhD?

I want to focus on Beyond the Standard Model. There is gold mine there.

Also I just need to know some facts.

Is there any physicist who didn't get Ph.D. who won a Nobel Prize? Or are all Nobel Prize winners all have Ph.D.?

But supposed I got lucky and write a paper that produces a breakthough, and I am just a graduate of BS in Physics without Ph.D. Would I get a Nobel? Or would the Ph.D. not vote me because I wasn't a Ph.D? It's like they don't want somebody lesser than their degree to won a Nobel?

You may all tell me that it's one pipe dream to produce any breakthough much less get a Nobel. People can win 1.6 billion dollar lotto. So nothing is impossible. So just please answer the above. Thank you!

You are going into Physics for all the classic wrong reasons. Good luck!

Zz.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't know if university would still accept me. My classmates would be 17 year olds.. lol.

I had a few older adults in some of my classes. It's not an issue and they can't discriminate on age. But... to build off @ZapperZ's message, if you are pursuing a life of physics purely for notoriety then you will burn out on your first difficult course (for PhD path, you have many years of them).

 

[George Jones]

Is there any physicist who didn't get Ph.D. who won a Nobel Prize?

Freeman Dyson did not get a Ph.D., but he did do very high-level physics research, high enough that, despite not having a Ph.D., he did get a permanent position at the Princeton Institute for Advanced Study.

Steven Weinberg has said that the Nobel committee "fleeced" Dyson with respect to his work Quantum ElectroDynamics, but a single Nobel can be shared by at most three people, so the Nobel for QED rightly went to Feynman, Schwinger, and Tomonaga.

From experience, up to what age can the brain and neurons still able to study physics?

I still "study physics" and maths, and I am 58. I did, however, formally study physics and maths decades ago at university, so my background was acquired when I was much younger.

Steven Weinberg is already 80+ years old. Is his brain still as good as when he was in the 20s?

No. Weinberg's famous 1967 paper was written while he was in his thirties. Weinberg wrote very advanced textbooks on cosmology and quantum mechanics while he was in his seventies, but he is not so active in research. Studying physics, and doing high-level research in physics are two different things.

Dyson did his QED work when he was in his twenties, and, even before this, he produced groundbreaking work in pure mathematics.

 

[gmax137]

My advice would be to keep your hopes & dreams mostly to yourself, while you start by taking classes in calculus and classical mechanics. See how that goes. Do you have the drive to learn and master that material? If so, then study vector calculus and electromagnetism. By the time you get through that, you will know what you need to take up next. The path is the same, whether you are 20 or 50 or 80 years old.

 

[gleem]

Could this yearning to do something that you wanted to do years ago be just another manifestation of a mid life crisis? Can you and your wife afford to live on one paycheck for considerably more than a decade ( incl post docs) with no guarantee that this investment of time and effort will pay off. Does your wife fully support this dream? This is not something that only you will be stressed for an extended period of time

 

[russ_watters]

I had a few older adults in some of my classes. It's not an issue and they can't discriminate on age.

I think my mother was 55 when she completed her undergrad in business from Temple. That was pre-online school, so she spent a lot of time in the classroom with 20 year olds. So that part is definitely doable and not terribly unusual.

Edit:
My mom's cousin is in his late '70s and is a retired physics professor. He kills time these days doing groundbreaking neutrino research at Penn!

 

[jlcd]

Could this yearning to do something that you wanted to do years ago be just another manifestation of a mid life crisis? Can you and your wife afford to live on one paycheck for considerably more than a decade ( incl post docs) with no guarantee that this investment of time and effort will pay off. Does your wife fully support this dream? This is not something that only you will be stressed for an extended period of time

We have income from real esate leasing and it's sufficient to support me for the rest of my life. So I have nothing to do for the next 40 years (except reading Physicsforums for half a century more). We have no children yet having married so late. She is near 43 and I heard IVF has only 3% success rate and there is even bigger chance for genetic anomaly. She didn't want to undergo it. So we may have to accept the reality we won't have children.

So instead of reading Physicsforums for the next 40 or 50 years. I am thinking of going back to school mingling with people (although younger) and not anonymous PF folks.

In case we will raise a child (adoption etc) at 50 years old. Would it affect my taking up Ph.D. in physics?

I want to solve all of the following:

1. The quantum measurement problem
2. The nature of space and time and matter (quantum gravity)
3. dark matter and dark energy
4. Qualia of brain
5. New force of nature (that possibly links dark matter and normal matter)

Let's say, just for sake of discussion, I (or someone else) can solve all of the above 5 (because they may be related). Do I or he deserve a Nobel Prize?

 

[ZapperZ]

This is no longer an Academic Guidance discussion. It is more appropriate in the Science Fantasy section.

Zz.

 

[gleem]

I cannot absolutely say that all major breakthroughs in science where made by scientist in the early years of their career but I think so. For breakthroughs later in career I believe that that was build on earlier work. Seeing that you might if successful be doing your seminal work at the age of 65 does not bode well for the impact that it will have.

I want to solve all of the following:

1. The quantum measurement problem
2. The nature of space and time and matter (quantum gravity)
3. dark matter and dark energy
4. Qualia of brain
5. New force of nature (that possibly links dark matter and normal matter

This is a beyond comprehension for a single person even attempting to solve one would be unbelievable for your situation. All I can say is knock yourself out. An if I could I would say amen to this thread.

 

[jlcd]

I cannot absolutely say that all major breakthroughs in science where made by scientist in the early years of their career but I think so. For breakthroughs later in career I believe that that was build on earlier work. Seeing that you might if successful be doing your seminal work at the age of 65 does not bode well for the impact that it will have.
This is a beyond comprehension for a single person even attempting to solve one would be unbelievable for your situation. All I can say is knock yourself out. An if I could I would say amen to this thread.

Wait. I think half of those who become physicists had planned to solve a major mystery. Don't they? It's part of it.

In the book Nobel Dreams and How I Lost the Nobel. You can see there is fierce competition among practicing scientists who got the Nobel. So it is part of the nature.

I expect by 90 years old. I should at least solved one of them. If not. I won't waste 40 years to become a physicist. I'd become spend my remaining years in the Yacht or trip around the world. But those thoeretical problems always haunt me daily.

 

[Dr Transport]

Retire and spend your time on a boat floating around the Caribbean. The chances of making a significant dent in any of those topics starting at age 50 to get a BS in physics is pure fantasy.

 

[jlcd]

Retire and spend your time on a boat floating around the Caribbean. The chances of making a significant dent in any of those topics starting at age 50 to get a BS in physics is pure fantasy.

I tried doing that. I went to this great cruise before but all I could think of was quantum gravity and Rovelli and stuff. No scenes or tourist spots can attract me.I don't want to keep thinking about it for the next 50 years. I can go to Cern but without a degree.. no one would talk to me there.

 

[russ_watters]

I expect by 90 years old. I should at least solved one of them.

What leads you to expect that?

 

[jlcd]

What leads you to expect that?

40 yrs is a long time. There is now gold mine in beyond standard model.. bec no one has seen anything new. Hossenfelder called it Lost in Math. So like treasure hunt where everyone is lost. Everyone has a chance. But if within the treasure hunt, someone else figure it out 20 yrs from now. No problem. Its part of it. Meantime i want to join the teasure hunt. How will i sign up. Part online course part hands on actual will be fine.

 

[symbolipoint]

Wait. I think half of those who become physicists had planned to solve a major mystery. Don't they? It's part of it.

In the book Nobel Dreams and How I Lost the Nobel. You can see there is fierce competition among practicing scientists who got the Nobel. So it is part of the nature.

I expect by 90 years old. I should at least solved one of them. If not. I won't waste 40 years to become a physicist. I'd become spend my remaining years in the Yacht or trip around the world. But those thoeretical problems always haunt me daily.

Unrealistic and impractical!

If finance and sources of funding will be no problem (and no scheduling troubles), then go ahead and review the necessary Mathematics, continue onward with the necessary Calc 1-2-3-&Differential Equations and the necessary physics courses for undergraduate degree, along with other courses needed for undergrad degree, through admission to undergraduate program and actually attending the courses for-real. Once BS/BA is earned, and if you are assessable officially as really good enough, then some graduate degree might be the next goal.

Now, during any of that, will health problems emerge and stop you in your educational process?

 

[jlcd]

Unrealistic and impractical!

If finance and sources of funding will be no problem (and no scheduling troubles), then go ahead and review the necessary Mathematics, continue onward with the necessary Calc 1-2-3-&Differential Equations and the necessary physics courses for undergraduate degree, along with other courses needed for undergrad degree, through admission to undergraduate program and actually attending the courses for-real. Once BS/BA is earned, and if you are assessable officially as really good enough, then some graduate degree might be the next goal.

Now, during any of that, will health problems emerge and stop you in your educational process?

That's why I'm struggling with the following dilemma.

1. What if I hide all my findings and even data and awaiting that day when i can solve the equations much like Einstein was figuring out the math of General Relativity. In his case, if he hadn't discovered it. Someone else like Hilbert could do it within 10 years.

2. My dilemma is worse. What if I hide all the data and got sick and gone. And on one else discovered it in the next hundred years or more? Is it equal to almost crimes againt humanity? (I struggle with this inner debate at times).

The point is. If I share all the findings and data, what if someone can develope the theory ahead of me and got the Nobel Prize (instead of me)?

(First some background, In the field, competition is fierce and many vocalized it such as the book "How I Lost the Nobel Prize". Many got bitter. So let's face the truth that it matters. And I'm saying this because most of us are anonymous so all topics can be discussed and no use keeping it to ourselves.)

What would you choose if given the choice?

1. Hiding all finding and data and they becoming lost when you are gone (say in sudden illnesses or accident) and another century or two gone by before someone could discover them (This is assuming your theory and discovery can help humanity and billions immensely for generations to come).

2. Or just risk it all by sharing every stuff with everybody and someone beat you to it and the discovery changed the world (but no one would remember you 400 years from now)?

Would you choose the former or can accept the latter (and bear sacrifices)?

 

[MikeeMiracle]

You seem to be suggesting that by studying you will automatically be able to solve these problems. It seems delusional to think that you will solve them if only you had the time and knowledge that many others already have. I mean, good luck to you, but what is it that makes you so certain in your belief that it will be you that has the ability to solve any of the 5 issues you highlighted?

Likewise before you have even started studying...it's a bit early to be thinking about hiding research...

 

[jlcd]

You seem to be suggesting that by studying you will automatically be able to solve these problems. It seems delusional to think that you will solve them if only you had the time and knowledge that many others already have. I mean, good luck to you, but what is it that makes you so certain in your belief that it will be you that has the ability to solve any of the 5 issues you highlighted?

Likewise before you have even started studying...it's a bit early to be thinking about hiding research...

I wish I were delusional.

Well, I had been thinking how to reply it so I'd not get warning by the mods. I think the following is the best I can come up.

What do you think of Sabine Hossenfelder?

She made me realize now is the best time to be a physicist. Lack of any new experimental data has reset and level the playing fields. So all are back to square one. And if one studies enough. One can become equal to the legendary Hossenfelder. Remember she wrote:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-lhc-nightmare-scenario-has-come-true.html
The LHC "Nightmare Scenerio" has Come True
"...we’ve entered what has become known as the “nightmare scenario” for the LHC: The Higgs and nothing else. Many particle physicists thought of this as the worst possible outcome. It has left them without guidance, lost in a thicket of rapidly multiplying models. Without some new physics, they have nothing to work with that they haven’t already had for 50 years, no new input that can tell them in which direction to look for the ultimate goal of unification and/or quantum gravity.

That the LHC hasn’t seen evidence for new physics is to me a clear signal that we’ve been doing something wrong, that our experience from constructing the standard model is no longer a promising direction to continue. We’ve maneuvered ourselves into a dead end by relying on aesthetic guidance to decide which experiments are the most promising. I hope that this latest null result will send a clear message that you can’t trust the judgement of scientists whose future funding depends on their continued optimism."

Now can someone give me the links to the best online courses.. at least to study some math for start and basic physics degree. Then would look for a physical school for my doctorate.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Meantime i want to join the teasure hunt

You're the first 50-year old I have ever seen use the non-word "wanna".

 

[ZapperZ]

I wish I were delusional.

Well, I had been thinking how to reply it so I'd not get warning by the mods. I think the following is the best I can come up.

What do you think of Sabine Hossenfelder?

She made me realize now is the best time to be a physicist. Lack of any new experimental data has reset and level the playing fields. So all are back to square one. And if one studies enough. One can become equal to the legendary Hossenfelder. Remember she wrote:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-lhc-nightmare-scenario-has-come-true.html
The LHC "Nightmare Scenerio" has Come True
"...we’ve entered what has become known as the “nightmare scenario” for the LHC: The Higgs and nothing else. Many particle physicists thought of this as the worst possible outcome. It has left them without guidance, lost in a thicket of rapidly multiplying models. Without some new physics, they have nothing to work with that they haven’t already had for 50 years, no new input that can tell them in which direction to look for the ultimate goal of unification and/or quantum gravity.

That the LHC hasn’t seen evidence for new physics is to me a clear signal that we’ve been doing something wrong, that our experience from constructing the standard model is no longer a promising direction to continue. We’ve maneuvered ourselves into a dead end by relying on aesthetic guidance to decide which experiments are the most promising. I hope that this latest null result will send a clear message that you can’t trust the judgement of scientists whose future funding depends on their continued optimism."

Now can someone give me the links to the best online courses.. at least to study some math for start and basic physics degree. Then would look for a physical school for my doctorate.

You are not only delusional, but you also have a very short memory on the history of physics.

It was only a few years ago that people were questioning if our elementary particle physics was right when the Tevatron struggled to find the Higgs. There were already theorists coming up with alternative scenario of our universe without the Higgs, and how the Standard Model had to be reformulated, etc... A whole bunch of people were running around as if the sky is falling down.

And now, with the LHC not finding anything beyond the SM, we are seeing the SAME thing. I can dial back several decades before 1985, when the world thought that there was nothing more to be discovered on superconductivity, that it was a matured field and has reached a dead end. Again, it took only 2 years for the entire idea to turn upside down.

It seems that people like you never learned, and that is ironic considering that you are wishing to learn physics, but failed to learned about the history of physics. You are forgetting that in the scale of time, the discovery of the Higgs has been only VERY recent, and that things are getting to be more and more difficult to discover and to single out. But somehow, just like in 1985, and just like right before the LHC when into full operations, the vultures seems to already be flying around impatiently proclaiming that something is either dead, or going nowhere.

And this is based on what? On one pop science book that you have been obsessing over?

Well, I too can make a prediction. I predict that you will NOT be going into physics, and even if you try, you will fail to make it through. I base this on years of observations of students that went into this field, and all the years of interactions with people in this forum. You have no clue on what is involved and how much work is required. Your fallacy of thinking that you can simply dial up a discovery is pure delusion.

Nothing here has changed my opinion that this is all science fantasy.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

Now can someone give me the links to the best online courses.. at least to study some math for start and basic physics degree. Then would look for a physical school for my doctorate.

And oh, since you are so keen in following the footsteps of some of the giants in physics, why don't you follow what they also did? How many of them, do you think, got their physics degrees from ".. online courses..."? Do you think Sabine Hossenfelder got hers that way?

Zz.

 

[fresh_42]

I think we may assume that the question has been discussed in all details. I doesn't make sense to repeat in variations what already has been said.

Thread closed.

 

[bhobba]

I have temporarily unlocked the thread just to mention how you could do what the OP wants. Check out:
http://www.open.ac.uk/choose/openplus/
Some of the schools you transfer to are good - one being named UK university of the year. You get a Masters then a Phd.

This is just information for those interested in actually studying physics now they are retired or finacially independent. You do not do it because you want a Nobel - you do it for the reasons Feynman famously said. Physics is not important - love is. He simply loved physics. So if you are finding you love physics and are older then do not let age stop you from getting a PhD and doing research work - it can be done. But do it for the right reason - Feynman's reason. And if you love physics words of discouragement will not change that love - you will be compelled by something deep inside to do it.

Thanks
Bill