Symbolic manipulation inside integral

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    Integral Manipulation
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the symbolic manipulation of differential elements in integrals, particularly in the context of physics and calculus. Participants explore the conceptual understanding of how differentials are treated during integration and the implications of these manipulations in deriving expressions like kinetic energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the symbolic manipulation involved in integrations, particularly regarding the role of 'dx' and its use in canceling terms.
  • Another participant suggests that these manipulations are typical in physics, contrasting them with a more rigorous mathematical approach that might critique such practices.
  • There is a discussion about interpreting differentials as "deltas" or finite changes, with the idea that derivatives represent averages, leading to meaningful results when limits are taken.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the cancellation of differentials in expressions like dp/dt * v dt becoming dp * v, questioning whether differentials are treated as numbers in these contexts.
  • Responses indicate that physicists often consider differentials as "small numbers," which facilitates the manipulations, though some caution is advised regarding the introduction of rigor in these arguments.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the treatment of differentials, with some advocating for a more informal, physicist-oriented approach while others hint at the need for mathematical rigor. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best way to conceptualize these manipulations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of formal definitions for the treatment of differentials and the potential ambiguity in the interpretation of their roles in manipulations. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical rigor versus physicist's approach debate.

RustyDoorknobs
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I'm an undergrad who has just completed the standard calculus sequence (1, 2, and multivariable). I've done well in the courses, however, things like the following, which is a derivation of kinetic energy, still confuse me:

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Taken from here.

I want to understand the symbolic manipulation that often occurs when making meaningful integrations. I was taught that the ending 'dx' term simply signifies the variable to be integrated over. However, it is commonly used, for example, as a term to cancel things out. In general, I see a lot of symbolic manipulation with differential elements that I want to understand. Could you recommend something I could read to better understand this stuff?

Thank you.
 
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These manipulations are basically the physicist's way to do it. A mathematician would perhaps chide you for treating the differential for something it's not technically meant to do.

In those expressions, think of the d's as deltas, so you are dealing with a finite change and then the derivatives give you averages. Then hopefully at the end of the calculation you can take a smooth limit and make the expression make sense. :)
 
Matterwave said:
These manipulations are basically the physicist's way to do it. A mathematician would perhaps chide you for treating the differential for something it's not technically meant to do.

In those expressions, think of the d's as deltas, so you are dealing with a finite change and then the derivatives give you averages. Then hopefully at the end of the calculation you can take a smooth limit and make the expression make sense. :)

Ok, I'm understanding more.

Could you explain how the dt's cancel out when dp/dt * v dt becomes dp * v? Are the differentials considered as numbers in these manipulations?

Thanks for your reply.
 
RustyDoorknobs said:
Ok, I'm understanding more.

Could you explain how the dt's cancel out when dp/dt * v dt becomes dp * v? Are the differentials considered as numbers in these manipulations?

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, they are considered as "small numbers" by physicists. Just think of the dt's as small, but non-zero numbers, and you'll get why the manipulations work out. Of course, at some point some rigor should be introduced into the argument, but for many physicists this is good enough.
 

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