How come surface integrals are single integrals in my book?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of surface integrals in physics textbooks, specifically addressing the notation used for magnetic flux. Participants explore whether surface integrals, typically understood as double integrals, can be represented as single integrals and the implications of such representations.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that Young & Freedman's textbook represents surface integrals as single integrals, questioning the correctness of this notation compared to the double integral representation found in other sources like Wikipedia.
  • Another participant agrees that both representations are correct, suggesting that the single integral notation is an alternate form that implies a double integral due to the surface area element involved.
  • A later reply emphasizes that from a mathematical perspective, the definition of a surface integral does not necessarily require it to be computed as a double integral, indicating that the rigorous definition may be complex and often omitted in physics texts.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for surface integrals to exist mathematically without being computable through multiple integration, highlighting the complexity of integration over surfaces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the notation for surface integrals, with some asserting that both representations are valid while others highlight the mathematical complexities involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these notations.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of the rigorous definitions of surface integrals being complicated and not commonly referenced in physics texts, which may lead to confusion regarding their representation and computation.

Andrea94
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I am currently reading Young & Freedmans textbook on physics as part of a university course, and I've noticed that they repeatedly represent surface integrals (which are double integrals) as single integrals.

For instance, they symbolically represent the magnetic flux through a surface as:
\int \vec{\textbf{B}} \cdot d\vec{\textbf{A}}
However, I suspected that this should in fact be a double integral (since the domain of integration is a surface), and indeed on Wikipedia they write the magnetic flux through a surface as:
\iint\vec{\textbf{B}} \cdot d\vec{\textbf{A}}

My question is, which representation is the right and why? Are they both right and we are supposed to implicitly understand that the single integral should be evaluated as a double integral since we have a surface area element?
 
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Andrea94 said:
I am currently reading Young & Freedmans textbook on physics as part of a university course, and I've noticed that they repeatedly represent surface integrals (which are double integrals) as single integrals.

For instance, they symbolically represent the magnetic flux through a surface as:
\int \vec{\textbf{B}} \cdot d\vec{\textbf{A}}
However, I suspected that this should in fact be a double integral (since the domain of integration is a surface), and indeed on Wikipedia they write the magnetic flux through a surface as:
\iint\vec{\textbf{B}} \cdot d\vec{\textbf{A}}

My question is, which representation is the right and why? Are they both right and we are supposed to implicitly understand that the single integral should be evaluated as a double integral since we have a surface area element?
I believe that both are correct, and that the first one you showed is an alternate notation for the second.

The wiki page on Multiple Integrals has this to say:
[PLAIN said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_integral][/PLAIN]
If f is Riemann integrable, S is called the Riemann integral of f over T and is denoted
$$\int \dots \int_T f(x_1, x_2, \dots, x_n) dx_1 \dots dx_n$$

Frequently this notation is abbreviated as
$$\int_T f(x)d^nx$$

where x represents the n-tuple (x1, ... xn) and dnx is the n-dimensional volume differential.
In your first integral, dA is akin to d2x in the integral above. In both cases they refer to a two-dimensional area differential.
 
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Mark44 said:
I believe that both are correct, and that the first one you showed is an alternate notation for the second.

The wiki page on Multiple Integrals has this to say:

In your first integral, dA is akin to d2x in the integral above. In both cases they refer to a two-dimensional area differential.

That makes sense, thanks!
 
Andrea94 said:
I am currently reading Young & Freedmans textbook on physics as part of a university course, and I've noticed that they repeatedly represent surface integrals (which are double integrals) as single integrals.
From the viewpoint of pure mathematics, the definition of a surface integral does not define such an integral as a computation involving a double integral. I suspect the rigorous definition of a surface integral is so complicated that it is rarely seen in physics texts, but usually there is some attempt in physics texts to define it without making reference to iterated integrals.

The mathematical definitions of various types of integrations over surfaces, volumes etc. does not rule out the possibility that such an integrals might mathematically exist and yet not be computable by doing multiple integration. (As a possible example, we can define what it means to integrate a function over a set in the plane, but the set might be composed of an infinite number of disconnected parts.)
 
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