Synthetic Renewable Source of ATP

[fredreload]

I need a synthetic and renewable source of ATP. I heard you can create it with electricity or from the lab invitrogen as a post described here. But I couldn't find anything on it, so let me know, thanks!

P.S. And if you combine it with the enzyme RuBisCO and carbon dioxide you can get renewable food source as glucose

 

[Drakkith]

What do you need it for? What kind of resources do you have available to you? Professional labs? School labs? A bench in your basement?

 

[fredreload]

Lol, right just making up some theories. I mean we can make starch without growing plants. Well, but RubisCO has a slow reaction rate for enzymes

 

[fredreload]

I found ATP synthase here. But now I need H+ ions, something like a battery?

 

[jim mcnamara]

Comment: Scientists and non-scientists use the word theory in very different ways. This is important if you want to get meaningful help on PF.

1. Non-scientists: 'some random idea I pulled from the nether regions of my anatomy'
- Greek word: scata (or scat in English) is a synonym I prefer.
2. Scientist: A well-tested hypothesis (or model) based on extensive research.

What happens to threads that come from understanding #1: they get locked, ignored, or negative comments. Or more garbage comments describing personal feelings which definitely get the thread in more trouble.

PF is a very good resource. People who are knowledgeable take the time out to answer questions.

@Drakkith was nice enough to intervene and try to resurrect this thread.

 

[fredreload]

Can someone tell me how oxidative phosphorylation works? How does H+ going through membrane re-energize ADP and phosphorous?

 

[fredreload]

Hi Jim,
Well, each time I come up with some new ideas I thought I'd share it on PF for someone with good knowledge to verify my work you know. I like PF because it is a credible site. If my speculation is wrong you are free to point it out. RubisCO is an enzyme(according to Wikipedia), so that does not really count as a theory. I agree I speculate a bit on the battery part and I should have better sources, but Wikipedia is pretty convenient.

FredReload

 

[Drakkith]

Can someone tell me how oxidative phosphorylation works? How does H+ going through membrane re-energize ADP and phosphorous?

Per the article:

As protons cross the membrane through the channel in the base of ATP synthase, the FO proton-driven motor rotates.[72] Rotation might be caused by changes in the ionization of amino acids in the ring of c subunits causing electrostatic interactions that propel the ring of c subunits past the proton channel.[73] This rotating ring in turn drives the rotation of the central axle (the γ subunit stalk) within the α and β subunits. The α and β subunits are prevented from rotating themselves by the side-arm, which acts as a stator. This movement of the tip of the γ subunit within the ball of α and β subunits provides the energy for the active sites in the β subunits to undergo a cycle of movements that produces and then releases ATP.

Were you wanting more details or something?

 

[Drakkith]

I found ATP synthase here. But now I need H+ ions, something like a battery?

ATP synthase is found inside of cells in small organelles called mitochondria. I don't know what they use to synthetically make ATP.

Again, why are you trying to make ATP? Do you think you have the knowledge, skills, and resources necessary to create it?

 

[rootone]

I've heard of ATP being used as part of 'body building' supplements, but have no idea what that is meant to achieve, or if there is any science behind it at all.
I don't know either how the ATP in those supplements is produced, but would imagine it's easier to extract ATP from micro organisms than it would be to make 'from scratch'.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Energy in -> energy out + entropy
Entropy can be loosely thought of as lost energy. All biosynthetic pathways are subject to this.

You do understand that when you transform energy like glucose -> ATP (ultimately) or the reverse in photosynthesis, the process as a whole is not 100% efficient.

I ask because you seem to imply that one can use ATP as an efficient energy source. But you have to make ATP from something (probably ADP) first, for example. Any change like this runs into the problem in the equation at the top. After reading that really old post you quoted, I think you may want to rethink what cheap means in terms of chemical reagents from the invitrogen (now ThomasFisher) site:

https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/en/US/adirect/lt?cmd=catProductDetail&showAddButton=true&productID=R0561&_bcs_=H4sIAAAAAAAAAI1QwW6DMAz9mlyGVgUyaK9dUXdYtVVC%2B4AoGIiUkCqEIv5%2BL2WgnaZJlp%2Ft2I7f%0Ae04ZP1y9q0cVhoRlRVKRv2tFwx%2F1LoQbE0eWnWHTNO1CR966Rg%2FAnXIW5XGAox6uc5YAztd47II1%0A2MAyEY0fgh8p5nzPASlP0ZmnLwvuM54%2BofxGPXlpklNHVitphqRxPrnohpJKaeoV%2FesocTzw9RCg%0AkkEa165nflVwstaeVEBkAhNnZWsmSjSWergZOVdhNuBSxHSJRVnpvjV0oTuZkwzUOj%2BjAzPvNOP5%0AQQKFzyuSRpsQ%2Fy6WIK75kDZu%2BaHIsteNJGLQhI9EASvVdRpTD73yTbH8l2abwg1WRX2%2BAUoXaCrq%0AAQAA&returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thermofisher.com%3A80%2Forder%2Fcatalog%2Fen%2FUS%2Fadirect%2Flt%3Fcmd%3DcatDisplayStyle%26catKey%3D57201%26OP%3Dfilter%26filter%3D101%252F51401%252F57201* R0561 2 x 0.25 mL 62.50

62.50 USD for one half of a gram (~1/50 ounce) of glycogen.
I picked this because you might know what glycogen is: a multibranched polysaccharide that animals use to store energy directly from glucose molecules. This is why Drakkith keeps asking about what lab facilities you have. Lots of reagents like this are required for biosynthesis.

Which is why - for example - medical human insulin (Humalog) is made in 50000L vats by bacteria. We hijacked the bacteria by adding genes (DNA ) that produce insulin into the bacterial DNA. This is far more efficient (thermodynamically, and financially) than making these kinds of things from raw ingredients and some enzymes. Here is the howto:

https://www.dnalc.org/view/15928-how-insulin-is-made-using-bacteria.html

 

[Fervent Freyja]

I found ATP synthase here. But now I need H+ ions, something like a battery?

There are many types of ATP synthase available. It is not the renewable source you believe when outside of a living organism. You would need many rabbits and a doctorate to make it yourself... Last I checked, ordering a few minutes worth of it, prices were $300-500. You really need a lab in order to handle/buy this.

A magnetic field...

What in the world are you planning on doing with it?

 

[fredreload]

Well first you got RubisCO enzyme, carbon dioxide, and ATP to create glucose. RubisCO enzyme has a slow reaction rate but its activity is not limited by Photosynthesis as long as ATP is presented. Then you convert glucose to starch with starch synthesis so you get an instant food source. You can get food from plant without having to grow it, it is also economical in using carbon dioxide and it is not limited by photosynthesis. You can recycle RubisCO enzyme after for the next batch of glucose

 

[fredreload]

Looks like a pain to synthesize protein from nitrogen likewise, but doable

 

[rbelli1]

Here is a site that will make the proteins for you:
http://www.biomatik.com/services/gene-synthesis-gene-synthesis/gene-synthesis.html

Likely they would not fold exactly as you want outside of an organism but they could build you the sequence.

The entire economic output of the planet couldn't keep one person alive at those prices.

BoB

 

[fredreload]

Here is a site that will make the proteins for you:
http://www.biomatik.com/services/gene-synthesis-gene-synthesis/gene-synthesis.html

Likely they would not fold exactly as you want outside of an organism but they could build you the sequence.

The entire economic output of the planet couldn't keep one person alive at those prices.

BoB

All you need is a part of the gene that produce meat. If you can reproduce that gene sequence to a large amount with DNA enzyme and recycle it. Thing is you don't need a large variety of genes but it would take a while to locate the part needed. It's out of my bound for now, we'll go with glucose, it's easier

P.S. If amino acids and protein are the same thing then we can really skip the DNA part, I'll check the amino acids synthesis when I have time
P.S. Synthesize essential amino acids are a pain, no wonder they cost so much money

 

[fredreload]

If you got the enzyme synthesis method for any of the essential amino acids feel free to post it, I found that many are still in theory and a bit complicated. I would like it to be from natural enzyme source but not bacteria source

 

[Evo]

Here is a site that will make the proteins for you:
http://www.biomatik.com/services/gene-synthesis-gene-synthesis/gene-synthesis.html

Likely they would not fold exactly as you want outside of an organism but they could build you the sequence.

The entire economic output of the planet couldn't keep one person alive at those prices.

BoB

It appears the answer is no, it is not feasible, thread closed.