Terms of second order and fourth order what does this MEAN?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the meaning of "second order" and "fourth order" terms in the context of energy, specifically related to the Born-Oppenheimer approximation. Participants seek clarification on the terminology and its implications in theoretical physics, particularly in relation to Taylor series expansions and error estimates.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the meaning of "terms of second order" and "fourth order" in energy, referencing a statement from a paper by Born and Oppenheimer.
  • Another participant explains that in a Taylor series expansion, the nuclear vibrations correspond to terms proportional to a squared term (a2), while rotations correspond to terms proportional to a fourth power (a4), with first and third order terms being zero.
  • A third participant notes that physicists frequently use Taylor series without hesitation, implying a common understanding of the concept.
  • A later post questions whether the phrase "error estimates are \mathcal{O}(\alpha)" translates to "error estimates are order \alpha," and seeks clarification on the meaning of this notation, particularly regarding the existence of a constant c that bounds the error as the parameter approaches zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express curiosity and seek clarification on the terminology, but there is no consensus on the deeper implications of these terms or their applications in specific contexts.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about familiarity with Taylor series and error estimation, which may not be universally understood. The implications of the terms "second order" and "fourth order" in energy are not fully resolved.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in theoretical physics, particularly those studying approximations and series expansions in quantum mechanics, may find this discussion relevant.

AxiomOfChoice
Messages
531
Reaction score
1
Terms of "second order" and "fourth order"...what does this MEAN?!

I am reading the paper written by Born and Oppenheimer that explains the development of the Born-Oppenheimer approximation. The paper contains the following cryptic (to me) statement:

"The nuclear vibrations correspond to terms of second order and the rotations to fourth order in the energy, while the first and third order terms vanish."

What, EXACTLY, is a "term of second order...in the energy?" (Or fourth order, for that matter?) I'm sure this is something I should know from freshman calculus, but this vernacular gets used a lot, and my understanding of it is muddled - it just is. Should I feel bad about this?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
AxiomOfChoice said:
"The nuclear vibrations correspond to terms of second order and the rotations to fourth order in the energy, while the first and third order terms vanish."

What, EXACTLY, is a "term of second order...in the energy?" (Or fourth order, for that matter?)

Hi AxiomOfChoice! :wink:

It just means that if you expand it as ∑ anEn ,

then the nuclear vibrations are proportional to a2,

the rotations are proportional to a4,

and a1 = a3 = 0. :smile:
 


Physicists take taylor series _all the time_ and don't think twice about it.
 


Thanks guys. On this same subject, when someone notes that "error estimates are \mathcal{O}(\alpha)" for some parameter \alpha, does this translate into English as "error estimates are order \alpha?" And, if it does, what does that mean? Does it mean there is a constant c such that the magnitude of the error is less than c|\alpha| as \alpha \to 0? And is it understood that c = 1, such that all it amounts to is that, if \Delta x is the error, we have |\Delta x| \leq |\alpha|?
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K