That given a continuous surface, contour lines exist

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of contour lines for a continuous and differentiable function from R² to R, specifically exploring the conditions under which these contour lines can be drawn. Participants are examining mathematical proofs and counterexamples related to this concept.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes starting with an arbitrary point on the surface and showing that curves intersecting at that point must have equal z-values.
  • Another participant suggests a proof by contradiction involving continuous functions along specific axes and questions the necessity of the IFF condition for proving the existence of contour lines.
  • A counterexample is provided, where a specific function (z = x² - y²) demonstrates that curves along the x-axis and y-axis do not share z-coordinates except at the origin, challenging the initial hypothesis.
  • Participants discuss the implications of differentiability and continuity, noting that a tangent plane can be defined at any point, which may influence the existence of contour lines.
  • There is a suggestion that the original hypothesis may be too strong and that a different statement might be provable regarding the behavior of the curves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the initial hypothesis regarding contour lines, with some providing counterexamples and others suggesting refinements to the argument. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the existence of contour lines may depend on the specific properties of the function being considered, and there are limitations in using only curves along the x and y axes to draw conclusions about the entire surface.

JamesTheBond
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Can you guys help me prove: Given a continuous and differentiable function (or surface) f: R^2 -> R, such that f(x,y) = z ... contour lines can always be drawn... the function is NOT bijective.

I've been thinking of choosing any arbitrary point and showing that the curves that intersect to form that point (over y-axis and x-axis) always manage to have certain z-values that are equal.

How do I point this is in mathematical terms?
 
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Here is a start of my solution which I am stuck with.

Consider this continuous surface f(x,y) = z. Consider arbitrary surface point (i,j,z _i_j). This point must exist (given f(i,j) = z _i_j).

Proof by contradiction:
Consider continuous functions f(x,j) and f(i,y) which are curves that are part of the surface. f(x,j) = f(i,y) = z_i_j are equal IFF x = i and y = j.

If I can disprove the IFF part, then I should be done right?
 
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I've been thinking of choosing any arbitrary point
Let P = (a, b, f(a, b)) be a point on the surface.

and showing that the curves that intersect to form that point (over y-axis and x-axis)
Consider the curves C = (x, b, f(x, b)) and D = (a, y, f(a, y)) that lie on the surface.

always manage to have certain z-values that are equal.
There exists an s and a t such that (s, b, f(s, b)) and (a, t, f(a, t)) have the same z-coordinate.


Incidentally, this hypothesis is false. For example, consider the point (0, 0, 0) on the surface:
z = x^2 - y^2​
The curve over the x-axis never shares a z-coordinate with a point over the y-axis. (Except at the origin when both z-coordinates are zero)


Hint: it might help to think, not of a surface in R^3, but of a function R^2-->R. (And I think you have one of the right ideas for proving this)
 
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Hmm... I can't just use the curves along x and y axes. Because there are bound to be such R^2 -> R functions which elude only those particular axes?
 
The function is everywhere differentiable and continuous/
 
JamesTheBond said:
The function is everywhere differentiable and continuous/

Therefore at any point you can define a tangent plane. If the tangent plane is not horizontal then you can define the direction of the contour line using it.

If the tangent plane is horizontal then you need to refine what you mean by "drawing contours". There may be a finite number (including zero) or an infinite number of "contour lines" through such a point.

Examples: functions f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2. f(x,y) = x^2 - y^2, f(x,y) = 0 at the origin.
 
JamesTheBond said:
Hmm... I can't just use the curves along x and y axes. Because there are bound to be such R^2 -> R functions which elude only those particular axes?
Well, you hypothesized something much stronger than what you actually wanted to prove.

Maybe your idea is salvagable? Maybe if you examine all the ways things might behave, you'll come up with a different statement that you can prve, about those two curves?
 

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