The class indexed by real numbers is a set?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether a class indexed by real numbers, specifically defined as \mathcal{S} = \{S_{i}:i \in \mathbb{R} \}, can be considered a set. Participants explore the implications of this notation within the context of set theory, particularly Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with the Axiom of Choice (ZFC).

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that \mathcal{S} is a valid set as long as each \( S_i \) is a set, referencing the axiom of replacement and the fact that \(\mathbb{R}\) is a set.
  • Others argue that indexing by real numbers may imply a continuum, which raises questions about the validity of such indexing in ZFC, suggesting that indexing is typically thought of as a countable process.
  • A participant notes that while a set can contain various elements, there are limitations, such as the impossibility of forming a set of all sets that do not contain themselves.
  • One participant suggests that it would be clearer to use a different notation, such as \(\mathcal{S} = \{S_{\alpha}:\alpha \in \mathbb{R} \}\), to indicate indexing over a set other than the natural numbers.
  • Another participant mentions that it is indeed possible to index by any set, regardless of cardinality, and refers to Zermelo's Well Ordering Theorem as a means to well-order \(\mathbb{R}\) and the indexed sets.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the class \mathcal{S} as a set, with some supporting its validity and others questioning the implications of indexing by real numbers. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the compatibility of such indexing with ZFC.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the nature of indexing and its implications in set theory, particularly concerning the transition from countable to uncountable indexing.

julypraise
Messages
104
Reaction score
0
Let [itex]\mathcal{S} = \{S_{i}:i \in \mathbb{R} \}[/itex] where [itex]S_{i}[/itex] is a set. Then [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex] is a set? Or, can this notation make sense in some way?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
julypraise said:
Let [itex]\mathcal{S} = \{S_{i}:i \in \mathbb{R} \}[/itex] where [itex]S_{i}[/itex] is a set. Then [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex] is a set? Or, can this notation make sense in some way?


I can't see why you think S couldn't be a set, as long as each [itex]S_i[/itex] is...What did you have in mind?

DonAntonio
 
A set can be of anything. Even {Lincoln, Charizard, {Fish Fingers, Custard}} is a set. Your set is, therefore, valid. Note that its cardinality is one of the alephs, I don't know which one.
 
julypraise said:
Let [itex]\mathcal{S} = \{S_{i}:i \in \mathbb{R} \}[/itex] where [itex]S_{i}[/itex] is a set. Then [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex] is a set? Or, can this notation make sense in some way?
Because the [itex]S_i[/itex] are sets, this is valid set builder notation defining a class [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex]. And by the axiom of replacement and the fact [itex]\mathbb{R}[/itex] is a set, the class [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex] is indeed a set.


Whovian said:
A set can be of anything. Even {Lincoln, Charizard, {Fish Fingers, Custard}} is a set. Your set is, therefore, valid. Note that its cardinality is one of the alephs, I don't know which one.
Not anything. There isn't, for example, a set of all sets that don't contain themselves!
 
Hurkyl said:
Not anything. There isn't, for example, a set of all sets that don't contain themselves!

True. Sorry for poor wording. "Almost anything" would've been a better wording.
 
julypraise said:
Let [itex]\mathcal{S} = \{S_{i}:i \in \mathbb{R} \}[/itex] where [itex]S_{i}[/itex] is a set. Then [itex]\mathcal{S}[/itex] is a set? Or, can this notation make sense in some way?

That's a perfectly valid set. But note that by convention, indexing by [itex]i[/itex] typically indicates indexing over the natural numbers. For clarity, it would be better to write

[itex]\mathcal{S} = \{S_{\alpha}:\alpha \in \mathbb{R} \}[/itex]

which provides readers with an indication that we are indexing over a set other than the natural numbers.
 
DonAntonio said:
I can't see why you think S couldn't be a set, as long as each [itex]S_i[/itex] is...What did you have in mind?

DonAntonio

You know, the concept of indexing in my mind (in my intuition) is kind of a countable process. But then now the index set is a continuum. So I thought it might not be possible; I mean this kind of indexing might not be possible by ZFC.
 
julypraise said:
You know, the concept of indexing in my mind (in my intuition) is kind of a countable process. But then now the index set is a continuum. So I thought it might not be possible; I mean this kind of indexing might not be possible by ZFC.


I see. But, as already noted by others, it is possible to index by means of any set, no matter its cardinality.

In ZFC we can even use Zermelo's Well Ordering Theorem to well order ℝ and then well-order the so indexed sets, if so wanted...

DonAntonio
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K