The effect of an external substance on the electric force between two charges

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on how the force between two opposite charges is affected by the introduction of a substance, such as a conductor or insulator, placed between them. Participants explore various scenarios and implications related to electric fields, polarization, and the resultant forces acting on the charges.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the force between the two charges remains unchanged, while the total force on each charge increases due to the superposition of electric fields from the charges and the induced charge on the substance.
  • Others argue that the resultant force on each charge could be zero, depending on how one counts the forces, and question whether the force between the charges is independent of other effects.
  • A participant mentions that inserting a conductor would cause the electric field to vanish inside, raising questions about the implications for the force between the charges.
  • Another participant points out that a thick insulating material, like wood, may shield the electric field, suggesting that charges may not feel the effect of each other.
  • Some participants reference the dielectric effect and its influence on the electric field between capacitor plates, indicating a need to consider this when discussing the forces involved.
  • There is a suggestion to consider the concept of an "effective distance between charges" when a dielectric slab is placed between them.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on how the force between the charges changes with the introduction of a substance. Multiple competing views are presented regarding the effects of conductors and insulators on the electric force and field interactions.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying assumptions about the nature of the substances involved and the conditions under which the forces are evaluated. There are references to the complexities of electric fields and the effects of polarization, which remain unresolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electrostatics, particularly in understanding the effects of different materials on electric forces and fields.

hokhani
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How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them? It seems that the force between the two charges doesn't change but the total force on each charge increases because of the superposition of the original field of the other charge and the extra electric field due to the induced charge on the substance. I would like to know if I am wrong.
 
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That depends on how you count the forces. What you described is one possible way to view the problem.
 
mfb said:
That depends on how you count the forces. What you described is one possible way to view the problem.
If we had for example a thick wood between the two point charges, ##q_1## and ##q_2##, can we say that:
the force between the two charges is ##F=kq_1q_2/r^2## and the resultant force (sum of the this force and the effects of other charges inside the wood) on each charge is zero? In other words, is the force between the two charges independent of any other effect?
 
hokhani said:
and the resultant force (sum of the this force and the effects of other charges inside the wood) on each charge is zero?
Why would it be zero?
hokhani said:
In other words, is the force between the two charges independent of any other effect?
That is one way to consider forces. It is not necessarily always the easiest approach.
 
hokhani said:
How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them? It seems that the force between the two charges doesn't change but the total force on each charge increases because of the superposition of the original field of the other charge and the extra electric field due to the induced charge on the substance. I would like to know if I am wrong.
If you put a conductor between two charges, doesn't the electric field vanish inside ?
 
hokhani said:
How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them? It seems that the force between the two charges doesn't change but the total force on each charge increases because of the superposition of the original field of the other charge and the extra electric field due to the induced charge on the substance. I would like to know if I am wrong.

Maybe you need to look at what happen to the electric field when you insert a dielectric in between the plates of a capacitor.

Zz.
 
mfb said:
Why would it be zero?
I think a thick wood shields the electric field and so each charge doesn't feel the effect of the other charge.
 
thierrykauf said:
If you put a conductor between two charges, doesn't the electric field vanish inside ?
Right, It does. But I want to know the force between the two charges and compare it with the total force (the resultant force due to the two charge and the induced charge on the conductor surface) each charge.
 
ZapperZ said:
Maybe you need to look at what happen to the electric field when you insert a dielectric in between the plates of a capacitor.

Zz.
The main question is:
How does the force between the two point charges change if we put a conductor between them? (increase, decrease or no change)
 
  • #10
hokhani said:
How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them?

2017515-121045312-3163-6-dielectric-polarisation.jpg
conductor between the charges gets polarized.
 

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  • #11
hokhani said:
The main question is:
How does the force between the two point charges change if we put a conductor between them? (increase, decrease or no change)

Maybe you should re-read your own post. Here's what you wrote in the original first post:

hokhani said:
How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them? It seems that the force between the two charges doesn't change but the total force on each charge increases because of the superposition of the original field of the other charge and the extra electric field due to the induced charge on the substance. I would like to know if I am wrong.

I simplified one part of the question by suggesting something that you can look up easily as an analogous situation. but I guess learning something is not what you're interested in.

Zz.
 
  • #12
ZapperZ said:
Maybe you should re-read your own post. Here's what you wrote in the original first post:
Although the main question was about placing a conductor between the two point charges, I raised the question generally (for conductors and insulators and ...), and exactly stated what I like to know.

ZapperZ said:
I simplified one part of the question by suggesting something that you can look up easily as an analogous situation.
My question is beyond the well-known dielectric effect which decreases the electric field between the two capacitor plates. This clear effect is explained exactly in the elementary textbooks.
ZapperZ said:
but I guess learning something is not what you're interested in.
Please don't prejudice. Anyway, many thanks for your help.
 
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  • #13
hokhani said:
How does the force between the two opposite charge change if we place a substance (conductor, insulator, ...) between them?

No liability assumed. Your question is sometimes addressed in terms of an “effective distance between charges” in case a dielectric slab of a given thickness is placed in between two charges in vacuum.
The Pearson Complete Guide To The Aieee, 4/E
 
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