A The g_ij as potentials for the gravitational field

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The discussion centers on the analogy between gravitational and electromagnetic potentials, specifically comparing the Christoffel symbols and the metric tensor in general relativity to the electromagnetic potential and field tensor in electromagnetism. While the Christoffel symbols can resemble forces in equations of motion, they are not tensors and do not behave like forces in all contexts. The Einstein tensor is identified as the true analogue of the electromagnetic field tensor, connecting the gravitational field with its source, the stress-energy tensor. The conversation also touches on gauge invariance, noting that while both gravitational and electromagnetic theories exhibit this property, the underlying structures differ significantly. Overall, the relationship between these concepts highlights the complexities of general relativity and its interpretation as a gauge theory.
  • #91
I should add that PeterDonis's remarks about phi(x) being a "spacetime scalar" is problematic for the following reason. In generally covariant or gravitational theories, local operators are not gauge invariant. The idea of "value of phi at the point x" would be an ambiguous notion because of the active diffeomorphism gauge transformations.
 
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  • #92
PeterDonis said:
Because it is. At a given distance from the Earth, for example, at a given time, the potential has a particular value which is a simple number, i.e., a scalar. Your coordinate transformation labels that point at a given distance from the Earth with a different ##x## value at different times, but that doesn't change the value of the potential at that point. It does make the potential a function of time as well as ##x## in your coordinates, whereas in coordinates fixed to the Earth (at least to an idealized Earth that is perfectly stationary), the potential is a function of ##x## only, not time. But it's a scalar--a number--in both cases.
Not at all. Please read my posts more carefully; I explicitly said this was not the case for Newtonian physics.
Sure it can. We know what ##\phi## and its gradient are in the original coordinate chart, the Newtonian inertial frame in which the Earth's center is at rest. You have specified a coordinate transformation that takes that chart to a different chart. Doing that also specifies how ##\phi## and its gradient transform: they both have to transform such that, at the same physical point in space (for example, at the same distance from the Earth's center in the same direction, such as towards the star Polaris), ##\phi## has the same numerical value. There is no freedom left to pick anything about how ##\phi## or its gradient transform.
You seriously don't see that, since we know ##\phi## and its gradient in one chart (the Newtonian inertial frame in which the Earth's center is at rest), once you specify a coordinate transformation from that chart to a different chart, which you have, you have already specified what ##\phi## and its gradient are in the new chart? You seriously don't see that you do not have the freedom to say what ##\phi## or its gradient are in addition to specifying the coordinate transformation?

I am very confused as to how you could possibly not see that.
Your confusion (and mine...) arises because of the differences between symmetries and pseudosymmetries, as I explain in my thesis. I guess you're right that the coordinate transformation (acceleration) does not induce the transformation of phi I propose in the usual way of tensor fields. Of course, I see that and I mention this explicitly in my thesis. In that sense the transformation belonging to this pseudosymmetry can be regarded as a "redefenition". In my thesis I motivate this by regarding the point particle action as a (quite unusual) sigma-model, in which these pseudosymmetries arise more often, and I give an analogy with the relativistic case. But of course, that already takes us way out of what we normally consider as "Newtonian gravity theory". But again, this interpretation is motivated by the Newtonian limit of GR and the correspondence principle.

But let me stress again that I see your point, and that it was confusing of me to state that this is just ordinary Newtonian mechanics with the usual tensor calculus.
 
  • #93
vanhees71 said:
I think it's pretty easy to see that within Newtonian mechanics the gravitational interaction is described by a scalar potential when taking the Lagrangian of the Kepler problem
$$L=\frac{m_1}{2} \dot{\vec{x}}_1^2 + \frac{m_2}{2} \dot{\vec{x}}_2 + \frac{\gamma m_1 m_2}{|\vec{x}_1-\vec{x}_2|}.$$
It is of the general form for a Galilei-invariant Lagrangian and obviously the interaction potential
$$V(\vec{x}_1,\vec{x}_2)=-\frac{\gamma m_1 m_2}{|\vec{x}_1-\vec{x}_2|}$$
is a scalar field under Galilei transformations.
Yes, but nobody was claiming that phi isn't a scalar under Galilei-transformations ;)
 
  • #95
love_42 said:
I should add that PeterDonis's remarks about phi(x) being a "spacetime scalar" is problematic for the following reason. In generally covariant or gravitational theories, local operators are not gauge invariant. The idea of "value of phi at the point x" would be an ambiguous notion because of the active diffeomorphism gauge transformations.

Adjusting the gauge of ##\phi## in Newtonian physics corresponds to choosing a "zero point" for the potential. The standard choice is to set ##\phi = 0## at infinity, but of course that is not the only possible choice (another fairly common one is to set ##\phi = 0## at the Earth's surface). None of that affects what I am saying about transformation properties; the only additional condition you need is that you must fix a gauge for ##\phi## before applying any coordinate transformations.
 
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  • #96
vanhees71 said:
So what are you disputing then with @PeterDonis ?

If he's agreeing that, in standard Newtonian mechanics, Newton's laws, including the law of gravity, are only invariant under Galilean transformations, then I think there is no dispute. I was not expressing any opinion about what was in the thesis he referenced except that it isn't standard Newtonian mechanics.
 
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  • #97
love_42 said:
Newton's law is F = ma. This law is supposed to work only in inertial frames.

Especially in the context of a discussion of gauge symmetries, why F=ma (force = mass * acceleratio) rather than L = T-V (expressing the Lagrangian L as the difference between "kinetic energy" and "potential energy"), as vanhees71 suggested?

The gauge symmetries are the symmetries of the Lagrangian. The Lagrangian formulation of Newtonian mechanics is equivalent to Newton's original formulation, and would seem to be more relevant to questions about the gauge symmetries of the theory.

Moving on to special and/or general relativity, we still have a Lagrangian L, though it's no longer in the form T-V.
 
  • #98
PeterDonis said:
Adjusting the gauge of ##\phi## in Newtonian physics corresponds to choosing a "zero point" for the potential. The standard choice is to set ##\phi = 0## at infinity, but of course that is not the only possible choice (another fairly common one is to set ##\phi = 0## at the Earth's surface). None of that affects what I am saying about transformation properties; the only additional condition you need is that you must fix a gauge for ##\phi## before applying any coordinate transformations.
The reason for this is, of course, that the "gauge freedom" for the Poisson equation boils down to just that pretty trivial invariance of Newtonian "field theory of gravitation" under changing the gravitational potential by an additive constant. This is in accordance with the fact that absolute values of energies (or energy densities) don't play any role in Newtonian and special relativistic physics.
 
  • #99
pervect said:
Especially in the context of a discussion of gauge symmetries, why F=ma (force = mass * acceleratio) rather than L = T-V (expressing the Lagrangian L as the difference between "kinetic energy" and "potential energy"), as vanhees71 suggested?

The gauge symmetries are the symmetries of the Lagrangian. The Lagrangian formulation of Newtonian mechanics is equivalent to Newton's original formulation, and would seem to be more relevant to questions about the gauge symmetries of the theory.

Moving on to special and/or general relativity, we still have a Lagrangian L, though it's no longer in the form T-V.
One should, however, distinguish between gauge symmetries and usual symmetries. Gauge symmetries imply that you use more degrees of freedom than physically observable independent quantities, and the "unphysical" degrees of freedom are not determined uniquely by the equations of motion. E.g., in electrodynamics you use the vector potential which is defined only modulo gauge transformations. You need an additional constraint (like the Lorenz gauge, which fixes the gauge partially or the Coulomb gauge which fixes the gauge completely together with the necessary boundary and initial conditions) to make the solutions for the potentials unique, but this gauge freedom is not an incompleteness of the description physically observable phenomena, because the indetermined unphysical degrees of freedom do not occur in physical observables (or, in other words, for a quantity defined within a gauge theory to make sense as an observable, it must be gauge invariant).

Usual symmetries describe just the fact that the 1st variation of the action is invariant under a group of transformations of physically observable quantities, implying conservation laws, if the group is a Lie group (each independent one-parameter subgroup defines a generator of the symmetry, which is a conserved quantity).

The difference between these two kinds of symmetry is particularly important in quantum field theory where the breaking of a usual (global) Lie symmetry implies the existence of massless scalar or pseudoscalar particles, the Nambu-Goldstone bosons of the symmetry and the degeneracy of the ground state of the theory, while local gauge symmetries cannot be spontaneously broken, and the ground state is (usually) non-degenerate and there are no Nambu-Goldstone bosons (but rather massive gauge bosons). That's known as Elitzur's theorem.
 
  • #100
vanhees71 said:
So what are you disputing then with @PeterDonis ?

Well, disputing...let's call it discussing :P : How the Newtonian potential transforms if you go beyond the Galilei group of transformations.

Let me formulate how I see things after the (enlightening!) discussion with Peter.

In the textbook Newtonian limit of GR, the Einstein field equations become the Poisson equation, and the geodesic equation becomes Newton's 2nd law. The gradient of the Newton potential shows up in the Christoffel connection,

<br /> \Gamma^i_{00} = \partial^i \phi<br />

So one can easily deduce that under a transformation, which we can call an acceleration,

<br /> x^{&#039;i} = x^i + \xi^i (t)<br />

we have in the Newtonian limit of GR that

<br /> \Gamma^{&#039;i}_{00} = \Gamma^{i}_{00} - \ddot{\xi}^i \ \ \rightarrow \ \ \partial^{&#039;i} \phi&#039; = \partial^i \phi - \ddot{\xi}^i<br />

Such a transformation leaves both the geodesic equation and Einstein's field equations in the Newtonian limit covariant. This transformation can be physically understood as the fact that locally in spacetime, where the Newtonian force is approximately constant, one can choose a coordinate frame such that

<br /> \Gamma^{&#039;i}_{00} = 0<br />

by choosing the acceleration appropriately (##\ddot{x}^i = (0,0,g)## if the gravitational field is point in the z-direction). This is the interpretation of the statement that "a freely falling observer feels itself being weightless".

So, the correspondence principle suggests that this is how ##\partial^i \phi## should transform under accelerations in the Newtonian theory. However, in the Newtonian theory, ##\phi## transforms as a scalar. The induced transformation on ##\partial^i \phi## by accelerating does not reproduce the transformation that the GR-limit gives. In GR, ##\partial^i \phi## shows up in the connection, and we know how connection coefficients transform. In Newtonian theory, ##\partial^i \phi## is just the gradient of a scalar.

But still, the action of a Newtonian point particle coupled to the Newton potential (and it's equation of motion, Newton's 2nd law) is covariant under the transformation

<br /> \partial^{&#039;i} \phi &#039; = \partial^{i} \phi - \ddot{\xi}^i, \ \ \ \ \ \ x^{&#039;i}(t) = x^i + \xi^i (t)<br />

This transformation of ##\partial^i \phi## is not "induced by the coordinate transformation". But there is a formalism in which we can interpret this kind of transformations: we call it the formalism of pseudosymmetries, which has its origin in sigma-models. The transformation of ##x^i(t)## does not induce the transformation on ##\partial^i \phi##; instead the transformation of ##\partial^i \phi## can be regarded as a redefinition of ##\partial^i \phi##. This "redefinition" (which for PeterDonis was the "magic"-part) is still a symmetry of the action, but because this redefinition is not induced by the transformation of ##x^i(t)##, the corresponding symmetry does not have an accompanying Noether charge. That's why we call it a "pseudosymmetry". It's the price to pay if you want to connect the Newtonian limit of GR to the usual Newton theory on the level of symmetries.
 
  • #101
PeterDonis said:
If he's agreeing that, in standard Newtonian mechanics, Newton's laws, including the law of gravity, are only invariant under Galilean transformations, then I think there is no dispute. I was not expressing any opinion about what was in the thesis he referenced except that it isn't standard Newtonian mechanics.
Indeed. I fully agree with your earlier statements and I was expressing myself not clearly. I'm also aware that the view I represent here on "Newtonian physics" is not standard.

Having said that, I'm still curious how you (or Vanhees or someone else) see the transformation of the wave function under Galilei boosts of the Schrodinger equation as transforming with an extra phase factor. It probably has to do something with projective representations of the Bargmann algebra. But somehow, that example always reminded me a bit of this discussion of the Newton potential.
 
  • #102
Sure, you can write all equations in a general covariant way. E.g., for Newtonian mechanics and many other theories you can just use the action principle, leading to a formalism that is forminvariant under arbitrary diffeomorphisms in configuration space (in all kinds of generalized variables the EoM are given by the Euler-Lagrange equation) or general canonical transformations in the Hamiltonian formulation.

Still, the symmetry group of standard Newtonian mechanics is the Galilei group, because for a symmetry all the transformations making up (a representation of) the symmetry group the 1st variation of the action must be invariant. You know better than me that you can extend Galilean mechanics to a kind of Newton Cartan theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton–Cartan_theory

The realization of the Galilei group in non-relativistic QT is subtle. The proper unitary transformations of the classical (10-dim) Galilei group does not lead to a useful quantum theory, at least nothing that would apply to the real world (Inönü and Wigner). Rather you need the ray representation of a non-trivial central extension with the mass as an additional non-trivial "central charge" of the Lie algebra. In any case there's no reason not to also extend the ray representations of the symmetry group to its covering group. So in non-relativistic QT the classical Galilei group is realized as a unitary representation of the central extension of the covering group (the latter just implies that instead of the rotation subgroup SO(3) you use its covering group SU(2), allowing for half-integer spin, which obviously is needed to describe everything we call "matter", i.e., the leptons and baryons which are all fermions with half-integer spin). The central extension with the mass as an additional independent observable leads to a superselection rule forbidding to superimpose state vectors from representations of different mass eigenvalues, and this establishes an 11th independent conservation law from the Galilei symmetry, the conservation of mass.

E. In¨on¨u and E. P. Wigner, Representations of the Galilei group, Il Nuovo Cimento 9, 705 (1952),
https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02782239.
 
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  • #103
haushofer said:
one can easily deduce that under a transformation

No, you can't deduce this. And you admit that you're not:

haushofer said:
This transformation of ##\partial^i \phi## is not "induced by the coordinate transformation". But there is a formalism in which we can interpret this kind of transformations: we call it the formalism of pseudosymmetries, which has its origin in sigma-models. The transformation of ##x^i(t)## does not induce the transformation on ##\partial^i \phi##; instead the transformation of ##\partial^i \phi## can be regarded as a redefinition of ##\partial^i \phi##. This "redefinition" (which for PeterDonis was the "magic"-part) is still a symmetry of the action, but because this redefinition is not induced by the transformation of ##x^i(t)##, the corresponding symmetry does not have an accompanying Noether charge. That's why we call it a "pseudosymmetry". It's the price to pay if you want to connect the Newtonian limit of GR to the usual Newton theory on the level of symmetries.

Personally, I'm not familiar with this notion of "pseudosymmetries" or with sigma-models, so I can't comment on them. But you admit that whatever these notions involve, it is not "deducing" anything; it's just declaring by fiat that ##\partial^i \phi## works the way you want it to. That's not deducing. It's assuming.
 
  • #104
PeterDonis said:
No, you can't deduce this. And you admit that you're not:
Of course you can. We're doing the limit of GR, and you know how the Christoffel connection transforms. That's the whole point: in good old Newtonian gravity, ##\partial^i \phi## is "just a gradient of a scalar"; in GR it turns out to be ##\Gamma^i_{00}##. And we know how ##\Gamma^i_{00}## transforms under a gct, so we also know how it transforms under the proposed accelerations (copy from Landau&Lifshitz):

Christoffel transformation.png

Naming i=i, k=l=0 gives you the transformation of ##\Gamma^i_{00}##; the ##\ddot{\xi}^i## which pops up is just the inhomogenous term of the transformation. On top of that, ##\Gamma^i_{00}## transforms as a vector under constant rotations, it gives you the Coriolis and centrifugal force under rotations which depend on time, it transforms as a scalar under Galilei boosts, etc.

But if you don't believe me, you can check the textbook Newtonian limit of GR yourself and check which coordinate transformations you're left with after taking the limit. The covariance under gct's is broken down to covariance under the Galilei-group plus accelerations.

I admit that in the good-old Newtonian theory, we can't deduce this transformation of ##\Gamma^i_{00}## from its tensorial properties.

Personally, I'm not familiar with this notion of "pseudosymmetries" or with sigma-models, so I can't comment on them. But you admit that whatever these notions involve, it is not "deducing" anything; it's just declaring by fiat that ##\partial^i \phi## works the way you want it to. That's not deducing. It's assuming.

Well, I'm OK with that naming. My fiat is the correspondence principle. It depends on how comfortable you are with bending the rules.
 
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  • #105
vanhees71 said:
Sure, you can write all equations in a general covariant way. E.g., for Newtonian mechanics and many other theories you can just use the action principle, leading to a formalism that is forminvariant under arbitrary diffeomorphisms in configuration space (in all kinds of generalized variables the EoM are given by the Euler-Lagrange equation) or general canonical transformations in the Hamiltonian formulation.

Still, the symmetry group of standard Newtonian mechanics is the Galilei group, because for a symmetry all the transformations making up (a representation of) the symmetry group the 1st variation of the action must be invariant. You know better than me that you can extend Galilean mechanics to a kind of Newton Cartan theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton–Cartan_theory

The realization of the Galilei group in non-relativistic QT is subtle. The proper unitary transformations of the classical (10-dim) Galilei group does not lead to a useful quantum theory, at least nothing that would apply to the real world (Inönü and Wigner). Rather you need the ray representation of a non-trivial central extension with the mass as an additional non-trivial "central charge" of the Lie algebra. In any case there's no reason not to also extend the ray representations of the symmetry group to its covering group. So in non-relativistic QT the classical Galilei group is realized as a unitary representation of the central extension of the covering group (the latter just implies that instead of the rotation subgroup SO(3) you use its covering group SU(2), allowing for half-integer spin, which obviously is needed to describe everything we call "matter", i.e., the leptons and baryons which are all fermions with half-integer spin). The central extension with the mass as an additional independent observable leads to a superselection rule forbidding to superimpose state vectors from representations of different mass eigenvalues, and this establishes an 11th independent conservation law from the Galilei symmetry, the conservation of mass.

E. In¨on¨u and E. P. Wigner, Representations of the Galilei group, Il Nuovo Cimento 9, 705 (1952),
https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02782239.
Ok. But how does this relate exactly to the fact that the Schrodinger equation is only covariant with respect to boosts if the wave function transforms under it with an extra phase factor? Is that somehow a hint at the level of equations of motion of the group-theoretical result from the Inönü and Wigner paper?
 
  • #106
It follows from the representation of the central extension of the covering group of the classical Galilei group how the wave function transforms. I have worked out once the representation theory for the Galilei group as lecture notes for a QM2 lecture. It's, however, in German (the quantum theoretical part starts with Sect. 2.5):

https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/publ/hqm.pdf
 
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  • #107
vanhees71 said:
It follows from the representation of the central extension of the covering group of the classical Galilei group how the wave function transforms. I have worked out once the representation theory for the Galilei group as lecture notes for a QM2 lecture. It's, however, in German (the quantum theoretical part starts with Sect. 2.5):

https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/publ/hqm.pdf

Kein problem, toll ja! Vielen dank! Ich werde es bald mal ansehen! :P

(That's more or less all the German that's left from attending 6 years German as a high-school subject)

Can you point to the page where you transform the Schrodinger equation under boosts and derive the transformation of the wave function?
 
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  • #108
This is on p. 87-88.
 
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  • #109
haushofer said:
Of course you can.

We've been round and round about this before, and you admit your viewpoint is not mainstream, and it's off topic for this thread anyway, and the OP is long gone.

I think this thread can be closed.
 

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