Gravitational Bending of Light: Equation for Photon Trajectory in Strong Fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding an expression for the deflection of light in a static gravitational field, specifically focusing on photon trajectories in strong fields. Participants explore the limitations of existing equations, particularly in the context of the Schwarzschild metric, and seek alternative approaches for modeling light paths near massive bodies.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references an equation for the deflection angle of light in weak fields, noting its limitations for strong fields and the desire to plot photon paths numerically.
  • Another participant suggests that the existing equations only provide the deflection angle "at infinity" and do not describe the path at finite distances from the gravitating body.
  • There is a discussion about the use of different coordinate systems, with some participants arguing that transforming coordinates could yield more useful differential equations, while others express uncertainty about the feasibility of this approach.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the lack of a timelike Killing vector field below the event horizon, which complicates the derivation of equations for photon trajectories in that region.
  • One participant proposes the Kruskal-Szekeres metric as a potential solution but is unsure how to transform it into the desired expression.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to return to the geodesic equations, noting that assumptions made in previous discussions may not hold below the horizon.
  • There is a debate about the implications of having a Killing vector field that changes from timelike to spacelike below the horizon, with some participants suggesting that this does not affect the mathematical equations of motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the appropriate methods for modeling photon trajectories in strong gravitational fields. There is no consensus on the best approach or the implications of using different coordinate systems.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific coordinate systems and the unresolved nature of the equations below the event horizon. The discussion highlights the complexity of modeling light paths in strong gravitational fields and the need for further exploration of alternative methods.

kevindin
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I'm looking for an expression for the deflection of light in a static gravitational field.
Referring to 'deflection of star light past the sun' in Sean Carroll's "Spacetime and Geometry" - equation 7.80 for the "transverse gradient":

<br /> \nabla\perp\phi = \frac{GM}{(b^2 + x^2)^{3/2}}\vec b<br />

Deflection angle is

<br /> \alpha = {2GMb} \int {\frac{dx}{(b^2 + x^2)^{3/2}}}<br /> = \frac{4GM}{b}<br />

As far as I understand it, this is only valid for weak fields/small deflection. I'd like to plot photon paths in strong fields (with just a single point mass, not distributed), so I'm looking for the instantaneous deflection, which I'll plot/integrate numerically, based on mass, radial distance from mass, and angle of photon trajectory. It should not use the Schwarzschild metric, because I don't want the singularity at r=Rs and it only needs to be in 2 dimensions, because of spherical symmetry. So, is there an expression for the polar coordinates r2, θ2 and trajectory a2, for a photon traveling from p1 to p2, using M, r1, θ1, a1, L?
I've attached a diagram which I hope illustrates it:
lightbend2.png

Many thanks
Kevin
 
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kevindin said:
As far as I understand it, this is only valid for weak fields/small deflection.

It also only tells you the deflection angle "at infinity"--i.e. the total change in direction of the photon over the whole process of flying in, passing the gravitating body, then flying out again. It doesn't tell you anything about the path at finite distances from the gravitating body.

kevindin said:
It should not use the Schwarzschild metric, because I don't want the singularity at r=Rs

What you mean is that you don't want to use Schwarzschild coordinates; in other coordinates (e.g., Painleve or Eddington-Finkelstein), there is no coordinate singularity at the horizon. But the geometry is the same. However, the thread @Ibix linked to uses Schwarzschild coordinates, so it only works outside the horizon.
 
PeterDonis said:
However, the thread @Ibix linked to uses Schwarzschild coordinates, so it only works outside the horizon.
It should be just a matter of transforming the coordinates to get a revised set of differential equations in terms of more useful coordinates, I think.
 
Ibix said:
It should be just a matter of transforming the coordinates to get a revised set of differential equations in terms of more useful coordinates, I think.
That's what I'm not confident of - my maths is a bit rusty. Someone must have done this already.
 
Ibix said:
It should be just a matter of transforming the coordinates to get a revised set of differential equations in terms of more useful coordinates, I think.

Actually, that by itself won't work, if you want to cover the region below the horizon. The problem is that, below the horizon, there is no timelike Killing vector field, so the whole mechanism used to derive the equations in that previous thread doesn't work, since it depends on energy at infinity being a constant of geodesic motion, and that's only true if there is a timelike Killing vector field. (The spacelike KVFs that make angular momentum a constant of the motion are still present below the horizon, though, so, counterintuitively, angular momentum is still well defined in that region even though energy at infinity is not.)

So a different method of solution is required for trajectories below the horizon. I have not seen one in the literature I have read, except for the special case of radial geodesics, which obviously won't cover the cases the OP is interested in.
 
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Is it possible to use the Kruskal-Szekeres metric? My gut feeling is yes, but I'm not sure of how to transform it into the expression I'm looking for.
Thanks
 
You aren't changing metric, you're changing coordinates. You can use any coordinates you like but, as Peter says (and I should have realized), you have to go back to the geodesic equations. You can't adapt my approach because it relies on an assumption that isn't valid below the horizon. You can still use that L is a constant, but that may not be a lot of help.
 
PeterDonis said:
Actually, that by itself won't work, if you want to cover the region below the horizon. The problem is that, below the horizon, there is no timelike Killing vector field, so the whole mechanism used to derive the equations in that previous thread doesn't work, since it depends on energy at infinity being a constant of geodesic motion, and that's only true if there is a timelike Killing vector field. (The spacelike KVFs that make angular momentum a constant of the motion are still present below the horizon, though, so, counterintuitively, angular momentum is still well defined in that region even though energy at infinity is not.)

So a different method of solution is required for trajectories below the horizon. I have not seen one in the literature I have read, except for the special case of radial geodesics, which obviously won't cover the cases the OP is interested in.

I think the equations will work, it's just that their interpretation changes. There is still a Killing vector field below the horizon, but it changes nature from time-like to space-like. I don't think this makes any difference to the mathematical equations of motion, the inner product of the tangent vector of the geodesic and the Killing vector field still remains constant along the geodesic. The physical interpretation of the significance of this becomes unclear, the conserved quantity is no longer an energy below the event horizon.
 
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pervect said:
There is still a Killing vector field below the horizon, but it changes nature from time-like to space-like. I don't think this makes any difference to the mathematical equations of motion, the inner product of the tangent vector of the geodesic and the Killing vector field still remains constant along the geodesic.

Hm, yes, good point.
 

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