I The general structure of relativistic QFTs

[vanhees71]

Thanks. We all know the "simple facts".

And what happens physically at that instant when the particle is detected? There is no wave function collapse in your view, is there? You didn't answer my question, and it is easy to dismiss it as meaningless. But if you insist on calling QFT a local theory, you should be able to say how the quantum field of the alpha-particle (continuously) evolves from point to point. Otherwise I'd call this use of the word "locality" empty jargon. It would apply only to some mathematical fiction. Perhaps we can agree to call the quantum field a useful book-keeping device that has no direct correspondence to the real world.

A particle by definition is an asymptotic free state. In your case you start with a nucleus ("asymptotic free state") which decays due to $\alpha$ decay. All you can describe and so far also all that has ever been observed is that after the decay you have another nucleus and an $\alpha$ particle. This $\alpha$ particle interacts with the material in the detector and with some probability this leads to a signal from the detector.

The description of interactions is local in a very specific sense, indicated in my original posting. Locality is indeed a property of the mathematical description that is sufficient to guarantee consistency of this description with relativistic causality (no causal effects between space-like separated events) and Poincare invariance of observables as well as unitarity of the time evolution and thus also for the S-matrix.

 

[WernerQH]

Locality is indeed a property of the mathematical description [...]

Agreed.

This $\alpha$ particle interacts with the material in the detector and with some probability this leads to a signal from the detector.

How does probability enter your description? The $\alpha$ particle could interact with any detector. This requires a global viewpoint (considering the whole experimental situation), and this makes actually applying QFT a decidedly non-local business! I think the probabilistic/stochastic aspect of QFT is important, and it's misleading to call it a causally local theory.

 

[vanhees71]

Fields exactly provide what you call "a global viewpoint". They describe quantities as a function of time and space. The probabilities enter the description in QFT as in any formulation of QT via Born's rule. How else?

 

[WernerQH]

Yes, I also believe that Born's rule is an integral part of Q(F)T. But for most people it doesn't enjoy the same significance as fields and their equations of motion.

Fields [...] describe quantities as a function of time and space.

In the analysis of Bell-type experiments you work with "local" fields and interactions, but in the end you use a non-local operator to derive the joint probabilities of the photon polarizations. I don't object to this procedure at all (after all it produces the correct results). For me it is a remarkable coincidence that "local" field equations can be used at all, as if there were real waves spreading into space towards the detectors. What we know for sure is only that there must be two emission events at the source, and two absorption events at the detectors a few nanoseconds later. QFT let's us calculate correlations between events; on what happens "in between" it remains remarkably ambiguous. For me fields are a mathematical artifact, and the emphasis on locality obscures the fact (in my mind) that QFT is a fundamentally non-local theory.

 

[vanhees71]

Which non-local operator are you referring too?

Now, again, comes up the issue about "words"! In physics there is one (and imho only one) clear definition of locality, and that's what's meant by this word in the relativistic local (sic!) QFTs as summarized in #1 and as is most clearly written in Weinberg's QT of Fields Vol. 1.

You have to say, what you mean by a "fundamentally non-local theory", when you talk about standard QFT, because it must be another meaning of the word "locality" than the one (and imho only one) meaning it has in the standard literature.

 

[Lord Jestocost]

For me fields are a mathematical artifact, and the emphasis on locality obscures the fact (in my mind) that QFT is a fundamentally non-local theory.

In the book „Elegance and Enigma The Quantum Interviews” (edited by Maximilian Schlosshauer), some of the key terms appearing in the book are defined in the glossary list. Under the entry 'nonlocality', one finds:

"In the context of quantum mechanics, this term chiefly has two meanings.
(1) The impossibility of describing correlations between outcomes of local measurements, performed at two different locations, in terms of a local hidden-variables model.
(2) Actual physical action-at-a-distance, where the physical situation in one region instantaneously influences the physical situation in another, arbitrarily distant region.

 

[vanhees71]

Ok, and the standard meaning as used in relativistic QFT is not even mentioned... Then it's no surprise that there's always a lot of discussion without mutual understanding: People use the same words with different not well defined meanings. It's a "great" way to get into unsubstantial discussions rather than to a concise understanding!

 

[martinbn]

Ok, and the standard meaning as used in relativistic QFT is not even mentioned... Then it's no surprise that there's always a lot of discussion without mutual understanding: People use the same words with different not well defined meanings. It's a "great" way to get into unsubstantial discussions rather than to a concise understanding!

What is the standard meaning of nonlocality in QFT? I would have guessed that this term is not used in QFT.

 

[vanhees71]

I'd understand it as a theory that violates locality, i.e., the fields don't transform locally under Poincare transformations and/or the microcausality property is violated.

It seems in the quoted book it is more about the understanding of EPR, and then (1935) the understanding of relativistic QFTs was not that advanced as it is today. I'm not sure, whether at this time they were aware of the microcausality constraint and its implication for the consistency of the theory. Also the idea of the S-matrix was in its infancy at best. So for me it was always clear that EPR could not know that relativistic QFTs provide a local (though not "realistic") and causal description of relativistic QT.

It's clear that any non-relativistic theory is "non-local" in the sense of the meaning 2, because in Newtonian physics interactions are usually described as "actions at a distance", and there's also nothing in conflict with anything within this theory, because there's no other constraint on the possibility of causal connections between any events other than time ordering, and time is absolute in Newtonian (quantum) mechanics.

 

[WernerQH]

Which non-local operator are you referring too?

I thought it was obvious that an operator describing photon polarization at two detectors (at different locations!) must be a non-local operator. Is it not?

You have to say, what you mean by a "fundamentally non-local theory", when you talk about standard QFT, because it must be another meaning of the word "locality" than the one (and imho only one) meaning it has in the standard literature.

Let's not waste our time on the "standard" or "proper" meaning of words. Obviously I should have added more details. I think that QFT is better viewed as a theory of isolated events, points in spacetime, and what is classically called a field is correlations between (microscopic) events. This idea should feel quite natural for someone who applies QFT in condensed matter physics. It is not a priori necessary to assume something physical to exist between those events. They need not be "immersed" in some kind of medium (aether, vacuum, field, ...) that is continuous. There's a theory of point processes, or random point fields, describing this. It would give physical meaning to the actual graininess of quantum fields.

 

[vanhees71]

I thought it was obvious that an operator describing photon polarization at two detectors (at different locations!) must be a non-local operator. Is it not?

Let's not waste our time on the "standard" or "proper" meaning of words. Obviously I should have added more details. I think that QFT is better viewed as a theory of isolated events, points in spacetime, and what is classically called a field is correlations between (microscopic) events. This idea should feel quite natural for someone who applies QFT in condensed matter physics. It is not a priori necessary to assume something physical to exist between those events. They need not be "immersed" in some kind of medium (aether, vacuum, field, ...) that is continuous. There's a theory of point processes, or random point fields, describing this. It would give physical meaning to the actual graininess of quantum fields.

I still do not know, what you mean. To describe the coincidence experiments when measuring photon polarization states on different places you need, of course, the two-point correlation (two-photon Green's) function of the (electromagnetic) field. Of course, it's all about correlations. What else?

 

[Lord Jestocost]

In the book „Elegance and Enigma The Quantum Interviews” (edited by Maximilian Schlosshauer), some of the key terms appearing in the book are defined in the glossary list. Under the entry 'nonlocality', one finds:

"In the context of quantum mechanics, this term chiefly has two meanings.
(1) The impossibility of describing correlations between outcomes of local measurements, performed at two different locations, in terms of a local hidden-variables model.
(2) Actual physical action-at-a-distance, where the physical situation in one region instantaneously influences the physical situation in another, arbitrarily distant region.

I hope there is no misunderstanding. To my mind, these definitions of nonlocality simply mean that it would be an abuse of language if the adjective “nonlocal” is used as a description of quantum or quantum field theory. Quantum or quantum field theory are non-separable, local theories.

 

[PeterDonis]

it would be an abuse of language if the adjective “nonlocal” is used as a description of quantum or quantum field theory.

Not with definition (1) that you quoted, since that definition is equivalent to saying that the Bell inequalities are violated, and QFT does violate the Bell inequalities.

 

[Lord Jestocost]

Bell's inequality is derived from the assumption of separability. Separability, as Don Howard puts in his paper “Einstein on locality and separability”, means:

“The separability principle operates on a more basic level as, in effect, a principle of individuation for physical systems, a principle whereby we determine whether in a given situation we have only one system or two. If two systems are not separable, then there can be no interaction between them, because they are not really two systems at all.”

[Edit]You can use definition (1) in the context of conversation about quantum mechanics, but when using the term 'nonlocal' as an adjective for the noun 'quantum mechanics', one only muddies the waters.

 

[PeterDonis]

Bell's inequality is derived from the assumption of separability.

Haven't I asked someone (possibly you) to point out exactly where in Bell's papers the "separability" assumption is made?

 

[Lord Jestocost]

My point is merely the following:

Even if observed quantum-mechanical phenomena appear to us as human beings to be ‘nonlocal’, physicists should avoid to use the label ‘nonlocal’ as an adjectival term in regard to quantum theory. The impossibility of describing correlations between outcomes of local measurements in terms of a local hidden-variables model, has at the end nothing to do with quantum theory. In discussions about quantum theory, vague terminology is indeed a big problem.

 

[PeterDonis]

physicists should avoid to use the label ‘nonlocal’ as an adjectival term in regard to quantum theory.

I would say physicists should avoid both "nonlocal" and "local" as terms when discussing quantum theory. Instead, as I have posted before, they should state explicitly what specific criterion they are talking about. For example, if it's spacelike separated measurements commuting, say that.

 

[gentzen]

Nicolas Gisin’s short book Quantum Chance nicely explains how the paradox arises that quantum mechanics is local and nonlocal at the same time: The randomness itself is nonlocal, and it must be really random, because otherwise this non-locality could be used for instantaneous signal transmission. At the same time, however, the randomness also becomes less problematic, because it is now clear in the sense of which idealization it must be perfect. After all, there is probably no such thing as mathematically perfect true randomness.

I don't think that the word "nonlocal" here is problematic. You might disagree that there is a paradox at all, and if you replace "nonlocal" by "inseparable", it might get easier to argue against there being a paradox. Or you might find the quote incomprehensible. But I doubt that the word "nonlocal" is responsible for that.

 

[vanhees71]

Not with definition (1) that you quoted, since that definition is equivalent to saying that the Bell inequalities are violated, and QFT does violate the Bell inequalities.

True, but it's not due to a violation of locality but of "reality", i.e., the concept that all observables take determined values, which are only unknown to us in full detail, so that we describe them statistically, i.e., via probability distributions of some hidden variable(s). That's of course what is not fulfilled according to any QT, including local relativistic QFT. Of course, I use the physical notion of "locality" in the sense of standard relativistic QFTs.

 

[vanhees71]

I don't think that the word "nonlocal" here is problematic. You might disagree that there is a paradox at all, and if you replace "nonlocal" by "inseparable", it might get easier to argue against there being a paradox. Or you might find the quote incomprehensible. But I doubt that the word "nonlocal" is responsible for that.

It is, in my opinion, mandatory to use "inseparable" rather than "nonlocal", because locality and thus also its negation have a precise mathematical meaning in relativistic local (sic!) QFTs, namely that the Hamilton density commutes with all local observable operators at space-like separated arguments, which excludes faster-than-light propagation of (causal) effects, i.e., space-like separated events cannot be causally connected also within relativistic local QFTs by construction.

 

[Lord Jestocost]

I completely agree with @vanhees71 point of view in comment #70. On ‘mathpages.com’ one reads, for example, the following:

“People sometimes think that the lack of separability implies ‘action at a distance’, but that's a misunderstanding. Everyone agrees that quantum mechanics does not entail any action at a distance, because no information or energy propagates faster than light. Nevertheless, the entangled parts of a quantum system are not separable, and this is precisely what the violations of Bell's inequality demonstrate. It’s true that in the classical context the only way things could not be separable would be by action at a distance, but the peculiar feature of quantum mechanics is that things can be non-separable without implying any action at a distance. The non-separability is subtle, but it represents a profoundly non-classical aspect of the world.”

Entry: “Quantum Mechanics and Separability” (https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath731/kmath731.htm)

 

[martinbn]

I completely agree with @vanhees71 point of view in comment #70. On ‘mathpages.com’ one reads, for example, the following:

“People sometimes think that the lack of separability implies ‘action at a distance’, but that's a misunderstanding. Everyone agrees that quantum mechanics does not entail any action at a distance, because no information or energy propagates faster than light. Nevertheless, the entangled parts of a quantum system are not separable, and this is precisely what the violations of Bell's inequality demonstrate. It’s true that in the classical context the only way things could not be separable would be by action at a distance, but the peculiar feature of quantum mechanics is that things can be non-separable without implying any action at a distance. The non-separability is subtle, but it represents a profoundly non-classical aspect of the world.”

Entry: “Quantum Mechanics and Separability” (https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath731/kmath731.htm)

I think this is the main reason for the endless discussions. Not whether QM is local or not, but the insistence that "quantum nonlocality" implies some sort of action/interaction/influence and so on at a distance.

 

[CoolMint]

True, but it's not due to a violation of locality but of "reality", i.e., the concept that all observables take determined values, which are only unknown to us in full detail, so that we describe them statistically, i.e., via probability distributions of some hidden variable(s). That's of course what is not fulfilled according to any QT, including local relativistic QFT. Of course, I use the physical notion of "locality" in the sense of standard relativistic QFTs.

This is way too subtle for most experts to note the subtle difference, imo. Even when they claim that quantum systems don't have definite values at all times, they go on and act and argue as if they had forgotten what they have claimed earlier.
Classicaility is just too overwhelming as a concept to remove completely from thought.

 

[WernerQH]

To describe the coincidence experiments when measuring photon polarization states on different places you need, of course, the two-point correlation (two-photon Green's) function of the (electromagnetic) field. Of course, it's all about correlations. What else?

One cannot arrive at observable consequences of QFT without using Born's rule in one form or another. But Born's rule breaks locality (in the sense of physical continuity between "cause" and "effect"). In its most spectacular applications QFT involves products of local operators at widely separated points in space and time, and applying Born's rule is then a decidedly non-local operation. There is a vestige of continuity in the fields and the operators that describe them, but this continuity applies only to statistical ensembles. Bell's theorem precludes any kind of causal continuity in the individual system.

We share a distaste for quibbling about mere words, and I don't think that our views of QFT are radically different. But I think calling QFT "causally local" causes misperceptions. The epithet "local" applies only to its "deterministic" side. Insisting on locality you are ignoring the vital stochastic (statistical) part of QFT.

 

[martinbn]

I completely agree with @vanhees71 point of view in comment #70. On ‘mathpages.com’ one reads, for example, the following:

“People sometimes think that the lack of separability implies ‘action at a distance’, but that's a misunderstanding. Everyone agrees that quantum mechanics does not entail any action at a distance, because no information or energy propagates faster than light. Nevertheless, the entangled parts of a quantum system are not separable, and this is precisely what the violations of Bell's inequality demonstrate. It’s true that in the classical context the only way things could not be separable would be by action at a distance, but the peculiar feature of quantum mechanics is that things can be non-separable without implying any action at a distance. The non-separability is subtle, but it represents a profoundly non-classical aspect of the world.”

Entry: “Quantum Mechanics and Separability” (https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath731/kmath731.htm)

Also from there

Now, it’s well known that no energy or information propagates faster than light according to quantum mechanics, and yet some people still have the vague idea that quantum entanglement implies action at a distance. This may be partly due to lack of clarity about the technical meaning of the word “action” in physics, but also partly due to the fact that the non-separability of quantum mechanics is subtle, involving distant correlations but not communication. People often use sloppy language, saying things like “one electron is affected by the measurement of the other”, but they are really referring to the existence of correlations, not to any action at a distance. Even Bell himself, who evidently yearned for a return to a Lorentzian world view, admitted that instantaneous action at a distance is inconsistent with the well-established Lorentz invariance.

 

[vanhees71]

One cannot arrive at observable consequences of QFT without using Born's rule in one form or another. But Born's rule breaks locality (in the sense of physical continuity between "cause" and "effect"). In its most spectacular applications QFT involves products of local operators at widely separated points in space and time, and applying Born's rule is then a decidedly non-local operation. There is a vestige of continuity in the fields and the operators that describe them, but this continuity applies only to statistical ensembles. Bell's theorem precludes any kind of causal continuity in the individual system.

We share a distaste for quibbling about mere words, and I don't think that our views of QFT are radically different. But I think calling QFT "causally local" causes misperceptions. The epithet "local" applies only to its "deterministic" side. Insisting on locality you are ignoring the vital stochastic (statistical) part of QFT.

It's correlations, not causal effects, that's described by the correlation functions. That's the important point of the whole debate! You evaluate the joint probability for registering a photon pair at two space-like separated events. This has nothing to do with non-local interactions.

 

[WernerQH]

It's correlations, not causal effects, that's described by the correlation functions.

How do correlations arise, if not through causal effects?

 

[PeterDonis]

it's not due to a violation of locality but of "reality"

Again you are insisting on your preferred definitions of words. Some people use "locality" to mean "the Bell inequalities are not violated". Certainly that is the usage implied by item (1) in the post that I responded to. I understand you don't like this usage, but that's beside the point. Not everyone uses words the way you would like them to be used.

It is, in my opinion, mandatory to use "inseparable" rather than "nonlocal", because locality and thus also its negation have a precise mathematical meaning in relativistic local (sic!) QFTs,

In my opinion, as I've already stated, we should stop using vague ordinary language words altogether. "Inseparable" is vague ordinary language; that word can have multiple meanings, just like "locality". Instead of saying "inseparable", state the precise mathematical condition you are referring to (just like saying "spacelike separated measurements commute" instead of "locality"). Then we all know what we are talking about and we can stop having pointless arguments over words and discuss physics instead.

 

[vanhees71]

Do I have to follow your opinion that I should not use the standard meaning of words and instead use some imprecise and confusing language? What should this be good for? Is PF now a philosophy forum rather than a physics forum? That'd be a pity...

 

[PeterDonis]

Do I have to follow your opinion that I should not use the standard meaning of words

The whole point is that there is not a single "standard meaning" for the words that are creating these problems. I have said this again and again and you continue to ignore it.

and instead use some imprecise and confusing language?

I said no such thing. I said you should explicitly give the precise mathematical condition you are using instead of using imprecise and confusing language. For example, instead of saying "inseparable" you should say the precise mathematical condition that you are referring to with that word.

 

[vanhees71]

I did this repeatedly. It's impossible to get any further if one only repeats the same well-known definitions again and again.

 

[PeterDonis]

I did this repeatedly.

Where have you given the precise mathematical condition that you are using the term "inseparable" to refer to?

 

[PeterDonis]

It's impossible to get any further if one only repeats the same well-known definitions again and again.

You are missing the point. Nobody has ever disputed the fact that QFT has the mathematical property you say it has (that spacelike separated measurements commute).

However, the argument you continue to insist on making is that QFT is "local" because it has that mathematical property. That argument is nonsense as an argument; it's a definition of the term "local", not an argument for why QFT is "local". And it's also a pointless argument, since what we are supposed to be discussing is the physics, not the definitions of words.

 

[vanhees71]

Then you should finally tell me what you think the word "local" means in the context of relativistic QFT. I use the word in the standard sense used in all modern textbooks about the subject, and I've summarized it in #1 of this thread. The details fill the first few chapters of Weinbergs QT of fields vol. 1. It's impossible to understand and communicate about an exact science, if it is not allowed to use the standard definitions and terminology of the vast majority of the science community. You are also usually a proponent of this rule for PF. So I'm very surprised that particularly you are fighting my attempt to clarify this confusion by pointing to the standard meaning of the word "locality".

BTW: A bipartite quantum system is called separable, if it's state can be written in the form
$$\hat{\rho}=\sum_j p_j \hat{\rho}_j^{(A)} \otimes \hat{\rho}_j^{(B)}$$
with $p_j>0$ and $\sum_j p_j=1$.

 

[PeterDonis]

Then you should finally tell me what you think the word "local" means in the context of relativistic QFT.

I have already done that in multiple posts, but I'll summarize again here. The "relativistic QFT" one is "spacelike separated measurements commute", which is the definition you've been using. The other one I've referred to multiple times is "the Bell inequalities are not violated". Bell's original paper got more specific about the latter and used "locality" to describe the factorizability condition on the joint probability distribution for measurement results (equation 2 in his original paper).

It's impossible to understand and communicate about an exact science, if it is not allowed to use the standard definitions and terminology of the vast majority of the science community.

The "relativistic QFT" community is not the same as "the vast majority of the science community". It would be very nice if the entire "science community" agreed on one definition for the word "locality". But it hasn't. The fact that you only recognize one definition as "standard" does not mean all your beliefs about that definition are correct.

A bipartite quantum system is called separable, if it's state can be written in the form
$$\hat{\rho}=\sum_j p_j \hat{\rho}_j^{(A)} \otimes \hat{\rho}_j^{(B)}$$
with $p_j>0$ and $\sum_j p_j=1$.

Is this equivalent to saying that a "separable" system is not entangled, and vice versa?

 

[PeterDonis]

You are also usually a proponent of this rule for PF. So I'm very surprised that particularly you are fighting my attempt to clarify this confusion by pointing to the standard meaning of the word "locality".

Your repeated posts have not clarified any confusion, because nobody is confused about the actual physics involved. All your repeated posts have done is caused pointless arguments because other posters here, including ones with considerable knowledge of the subject matter under discussion, do not use the word "locality" the same way you do and object to your talking as if your preferred usage was the only one that exists.

 

[PeterDonis]

Thread closed for moderation.

 

[Doc Al]

This thread can remain closed. I think we've beat this topic to death (at least for the time being). This thread demonstrates that the meaning of "local" is context-dependent. To avoid wheel spinning over terminology. it behooves us to be explicit about what we mean when using the term.