The length of a falling elevator

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SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on calculating the length of a falling elevator in a gravitational field, specifically in the context of general relativity. Key points include the analysis of measurements from various observers: a Schwarzschild observer at infinity, a local observer at a radius of 4m, and free-falling observers inside the elevator. The conversation highlights the importance of integrating the Lorentz interval along a chosen curve to determine proper length, emphasizing the need for subdivisions to accurately measure distances in a non-inertial frame. The participants also explore the implications of tidal forces and the conditions under which a ruler's length is perceived differently by various observers.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of general relativity concepts, specifically Schwarzschild coordinates.
  • Familiarity with the Lorentz interval and its application in spacetime measurements.
  • Knowledge of radar distance measurement techniques in non-inertial frames.
  • Basic grasp of tidal forces and their effects on rigid bodies in gravitational fields.
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the integration of the Lorentz interval in curved spacetime.
  • Study the effects of tidal forces on rigid bodies in gravitational fields.
  • Learn about radar distance measurement techniques in general relativity.
  • Explore the implications of free-fall dynamics near massive bodies, particularly black holes.
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of general relativity, and anyone interested in the dynamics of objects in gravitational fields, particularly in understanding the nuances of length measurement in non-inertial frames.

  • #31
yuiop said:
Again, I think this is fine if the measured object is not moving with respect the Schwarzschild coordinates.
I am trying yo understand why you think this is a problem if the object moves, we can just 'freeze the image', e.g. keep coordinate time fixed and calculate. No?

yuiop said:
We know that for an object falling from infinity the local velocity is \sqrt{(r_s/r)} so the velocity length contraction factor is \sqrt{(1-r_s/r)} and the total length contraction factor is (1-r_s/r).
Why do you assume this is different from for instance an example in the Rindler metric (Yes, I know this is a curved spacetime situation, but I am just looking at Lorentz contraction here), I mean in the Rindler case the proper distance remains the same with increasing coordinate velocities, and that makes sense because it is a proper distance. The object in question after all goes with a proper velocity of zero. GR does not do away with this principle of relativity of motion.

Also when you talk about 'gravitational length contraction' it might be useful if you explain exactly what you mean by that. In the graph above I showed that for decreasing equal coordinate distances more additional proper distance is created, e.g. there is more proper distance between (R=3, R=2) than (R=4, R=3). The same happens for volumes, e.g. there is more space between (R=3, R=2) than (R=4, R=3) if we adjust the volumes by the volume obtained from an Euclidean based calculation.
 
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  • #32
Passionflower said:
I am trying yo understand why you think this is a problem if the object moves, we can just 'freeze the image', e.g. keep coordinate time fixed and calculate. No?
When you calculate the integrated distance of a moving object that has one end at Schwarzschild coordinate R1 and the other end at R2 at the same Schwarzschild cordinate time using the equation you were using, you are in fact calculating the proper length of a stationary rod that spans those two coordinates. Even though one end of the moving rod and the stationary rod are both at R1 at time T and the other end of the moving rod and the stationary rod happen to coincide at coordinate R2 at time T, it does not mean the proper length of the stationary rod and the proper length of the moving rod are the same (even though they have the same coordinate length). As Pervect mentions, to a local observer, local measurements are Minkowskian and the moving ruler going past him is length contracted relative to the ruler he has in his hand if they both have the same proper length or if they both appear to have the same length as measured by the stationary local observer, then the proper length of the falling ruler (as measured by an observer riding on the ruler) is longer than the proper length of the ruler that is not falling (as measured by the stationary local Schwarzschild observer).

Consider a purely SR scenario. A moving rod is passing through a barn and to an observer at rest with the barn, the rod and the barn appear to have "the same length" when the "image is frozen", but we know that because the rod is moving relative to the barn observer, the rod has a longer proper length than the barn's proper length. The barn observer's measurement of the moving rod is in fact a coordinate measurement. An observer riding with the moving rod measures the rod's proper length. I won't go on. I am fairly sure you are familiar with the details and resolution of the barn and pole paradox. All I am doing is upending the barn and dropping the pole through it.

Why do you assume this is different from for instance an example in the Rindler metric (Yes, I know this is a curved spacetime situation, but I am just looking at Lorentz contraction here), I mean in the Rindler case the proper distance remains the same with increasing coordinate velocities, and that makes sense because it is a proper distance. The object in question after all goes with a proper velocity of zero.
Yes, I agree the proper length of the falling rod remains constant. It is the coordinate length of the falling rod that changes as it falls and to the Schwarzschild observer at infinity the length contraction is a factor of both the gravitational and velocity related time dilation factors. To a local stationary observer further down that measures the rod as it goes past, the rod only appears to be length contracted by the velocity time dilation factor that is a function of its local velocity. To the local observer, for a sufficiently local region, spacetime appears to be flat or Minkowskian and the calculations are those of SR. The falling rod and the local observer, when they are approximately and momentarily co-located, are subject to the same gravitational time dilation factor and so the gravitational time dilation factor is not needed for local calculations.

GR does not do away with this principle of relativity of motion.
I have not done away with it either. In fact I have introduced the fact into our equations, that when an object has motion relative to the observer, it appears to have a coordinate length that is length contracted relative to the proper length.
 
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  • #33
yuiop said:
Here is my way to to attempt to explain what Passionflower and myself are getting at by the term "coordinate distance" and maybe we can come to some sort of agreement in the context given below.

Start with the abbreviated Schwarzschild metric using the +--- signature:

c^2d\tau^2 = (1-r_s/r) c^2 dt^2 - (1-r_s/r) dr^2

The "abbreviated" Schwarzschild metric is:ds^2 = (1-r_s/r) c^2 dt^2 - \frac{dr^2}{1-r_s/r} (Rindler (11.13))
dS^2 = -(1-r_s/r) c^2 dt^2 + (1-r_s/r)^{-1} dr^2

and solve for the coordinate distance (dr) between two events with the same coordinate time t so that dt = 0:

What does dt=0 mean for you?
dr = dS \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

From the above we see that the coordinate length (dr) of an infinitesimal rod is smaller that the proper length (dS) of the same rod by the gravitational gamma factor. This is in effect, gravitational length contraction.
No, for a correct derivation see Rindler again , section 11.2. Rindler shows why :

dr = dl \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

where dl is the "radial ruler distance".
 
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  • #34
yuiop said:
This expression is the integrated distance between the Shwarzschild radial coordinates ro and ri. <snip>

OK, thanks. I saw this huge, unwieldy expression and had no idea where it came from. It does appear to look right - Maple spits out something that appears to be equivalent, though it looks different on first glance.

Now if the rod is moving with respect to the Schwarzschild observer at infinity then the integrated length of the rod with equal Schwarzschild coordinate times, is the Schwarzschild coordinate length of the rod, but it will not agree with the proper length of the rod as could be measured by infinitesimal rulers attached to the moving rod. Now I think it is reasonable to assume that if the rod is falling and the rod is sufficiently rigid to overcome tidal forces stretching it (to an acceptable accuracy or assume a hypothetical infinitly rigid rod), then the proper length of the falling rod should not change as it falls, but its integrated coordinate length will change. Agree?

You mentioned the "barn and the pole" paradox in another post, and this as well, so I think you're seeing the point.

When you calculate the integrated distance of a moving object that has one end at Schwarzschild coordinate R1 and the other end at R2 at the same Schwarzschild cordinate time ... you are in fact calculating the proper length of a stationary rod that spans those two coordinates.

Yes, this is what you are calculating.

Both you and Passionflower seem to be very enamored of coordinates. So perhaps it's worth noting how one would create locally Lorentz coordinates at a point.

Suppose we have some metric, say the Schwarzschild metric, g_{ij}, and we introduce new coordinates (r,t) -> (r',t') Because g_ij is a covariant (i.e. subscripted) tensor , it transforms in the following way, where I've written out everything longhand for clarity rather than using the Einstein convention

<br /> g_{r&#039;r&#039;} = g_{rr} \frac{\partial r}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial r}{\partial r&#039;} + g_{rt} \frac{\partial r}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial r&#039;} + g_{tt} \frac{\partial t}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial r&#039;}<br />

<br /> g_{r&#039;t&#039;} = g_{rr} \, \frac{\partial r}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial r}{\partial t&#039;} + g_{rt} \frac{\partial r}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial t&#039;} + g_{tt} \frac{\partial t}{\partial r&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial t&#039;}<br />

<br /> g_{t&#039;t&#039;} = g_{rr} \frac{\partial r}{\partial t&#039;} \, \frac{\partial r}{\partial t&#039;} + g_{rt} \frac{\partial r}{\partial t&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial t&#039;} + g_{tt} \frac{\partial t}{\partial t&#039;} \, \frac{\partial t}{\partial t&#039;} <br />

Because the Schwarzschild metric is diagonal, it's easy to find the expression r = alpha r' and t = beta t' to make it an identity matrix, creating a local Lorentz frame in terms of the new coordinate values.

i.e.
<br /> g_{r&#039;r&#039;} = g_{rr} \alpha^2<br />

<br /> g_{t&#039;t&#039;} = g_{tt} \beta^2<br />

and r' = r / alpha, t' = t/ beta, we then can think of r' and t' as being the "local" coordinates.

Finding the proper linear relationship between (r,t) and (r',t') to represent the "local coordinate system of the moving particle" is also possible, but more work. The point is to diagonalize the metric tensor in the "local" coordinates.

Again, this is an approximation type thing - the transformation makes the metric Lorentzian only over a small region of space-time. Because space-time is curved, you can introduce coordinates to make it Lorentzian everywhere.
 
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  • #35
Passionflower said:
Also when you talk about 'gravitational length contraction' it might be useful if you explain exactly what you mean by that. In the graph above I showed that for decreasing equal coordinate distances more additional proper distance is created, e.g. there is more proper distance between (R=3, R=2) than (R=4, R=3). The same happens for volumes, e.g. there is more space between (R=3, R=2) than (R=4, R=3) if we adjust the volumes by the volume obtained from an Euclidean based calculation.

In SR if an object with proper length L=1 is moving with velocity 0.8c relative to an inertial observer, the coordinate length of the moving object is L' = 0.6

The proper length remains constant but different observers measure different coordinate lengths. This is "velocity length contraction".

In GR (Schwarzschild coordinates) if a short object has proper length L=1 and it is located at say R=2Rs then its coordinate length is L' = sqrt(1-Rs/R) = sqrt(1/2) = 0.7071.

The proper length remains constant but its coordinate length varies upon where it is located. This is the "gravitational length contraction".

If a local observer measures the velocity of the short falling object to be 0.8c as it passes and the local observer is located at R = 2Rs, then the coordinate length of the falling object at R=2Rs according to the Schwarzschild observer at infinity is L' = 1*0.6*0.7071 = 0.4243. i.e the object is subject to both gravitational and velocity length contraction. (The length of the falling object as measured by the local observer as it passes him, is simply 0.6 i.e exactly the same as in SR)

All the above assumes an infinitesimal falling object. For an extended non-infinitesimal object, integrated distances have to used.
 
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  • #36
yuiop said:
and solve for the coordinate distance (dr) between two events with the same coordinate time t so that dt = 0:

dr = dS \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

From the above we see that the coordinate length (dr) of an infinitesimal rod is smaller that the proper length (dS) of the same rod by the gravitational gamma factor. This is in effect, gravitational length contraction.
starthaus said:
No, for a correct derivation see Rindler again , section 11.2. Rindler shows why :

dr = dl \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

where dl is the "radial ruler distance".

Solve for dS. We get:

dS = dr / \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

Solve for dl. We get:

dl = dr / \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

Therefore we conclude dl = dS.
 
  • #37
yuiop said:
Solve for dS. We get:

dS = dr / \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

Solve for dl. We get:

dl = dr / \sqrt{1-r_s/r}

Therefore we conclude dl = dS.

The question was, how did you end up with the incorrect formula for calculating \Delta S?
 
  • #38
yuiop said:
In SR if an object with proper length L=1 is moving with velocity 0.8c relative to an inertial observer, the coordinate length of the moving object is L' = 0.6

The proper length remains constant but different observers measure different coordinate lengths. This is "velocity length contraction".

In GR (Schwarzschild coordinates) if a short object has proper length L=1 and it is located at say R=2Rs then its coordinate length is L' = sqrt(1-Rs/R) = sqrt(2) = 0.7071.

The proper length remains constant but its coordinate length varies upon where it is located. This is the "gravitational length contraction".

If a local observer measures the velocity of the short falling object to be 0.8c as it passes and the local observer is located at R = 2Rs, then the coordinate length of the falling object at R=2Rs according to the Schwarzschild observer at infinity is L' = 1*0.6*0.7071 = 0.4243. i.e the object is subject to both gravitational and velocity length contraction. (The length of the falling object as measured by the local observer as it passes him, is simply 0.6 i.e exactly the same as in SR)

All the above assumes an infinitesimal falling object. For an extended non-infinitesimal object, integrated distances have to used.
Ok, I see what you are saying, however you suggest we use the radar distance for this. Now can that be right? Take for instance the Rindler case, here radar and ruler distance are not equal, are you suggesting that in the Schwarzschild case ruler and radar distance are identical? Clearly if they are not, we must use a different formula.
 
  • #39
yuiop said:
dS^2 = -(1-r_s/r) c^2 dt^2 + (1-r_s/r)^{-1} dr^2

and solve for the coordinate distance (dr) between two events with the same coordinate time t so that dt = 0:
starthaus said:
What does dt=0 mean for you?
From the above I thought it was clear that by dt=0 I meant the two coordinates had the same coordinate time as measured by an observer at infinity and the events are simultaneous in those coordinates.
 
  • #40
starthaus said:
The question was, how did you end up with the incorrect formula for calculating \Delta S?
The equation you are using is for a stationary object. In this thread we are considering a falling (moving) object.
 
  • #41
yuiop said:
The equation you are using is for a stationary object.

It was a simpler example meant to illustrate how to do a correct derivation.
In this thread we are considering a falling (moving) object.

Well understood. You still got it wrong. That was the point.
 
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  • #42
Passionflower said:
Ok, I see what you are saying, however you suggest we use the radar distance for this. Now can that be right? Take for instance the Rindler case, here radar and ruler distance are not equal, are you suggesting that in the Schwarzschild case ruler and radar distance are identical? Clearly if they are not, we must use a different formula.

I was not actually using radar distances, but ruler distances. I accept that they are different over extended distances and depending on where the radar measurement is made from.

We can relate ruler measurements to extended radar measurements like this. Take a very short ruler. Measure its radar distance from both ends. If the ruler is sufficiently short, the radar length measured from either end is approximately the same. If the error is unacceptable, make the ruler shorter. Make lots of such rulers. Lay them end to end from r1 to r2. This is the ruler length from r1 to r2 and is (I think) equivalent to the proper distance from r1 to r2 and the same as what you obtain when you calculate the integrated distance from r1 to r2. This distance is not the same as the total radar measurement if you send a signal from r1 to r2 and divide by 2 and the total radar measurement from the other end will be different again.

The measurement of a short falling rod by a local observer can be done like this. the local observer holds his ruler vertically. He notes the time the leading part of the falling rod passes the top of his vertical ruler. He notes the time the leading part of the falling rod passes the lower part of his ruler. The divides the ruler length by the time take to obtain the local velocity of the ruler. He can do the same measure of velocity for the trailing edge of the falling rod. He may obtain a slightly higher reading for this, but for a sufficiently short falling rod the difference is small and he can use an average velocity. Now that he know the velocity of the falling rod, he can measure how long it takes between the front of the rod and the back of the rod to pass the same clock at one end of his ruler. From v*t he can obtain the length of the passing rod. For a sufficiently short rod and a sufficiently short measuring ruler, the difference in proper clock rates between the clock at the top of his ruler and the the bottom of the his ruler is negligible. For example consider the difference in proper clock rates between two clocks that are vertically separated by 1 millimetre in the Earth's gravitational field. This would be almost impossible to detect. If that is not good enough, make the distance shorter. This is (sort of) how calculus works.
 
  • #43
yuiop said:
I was not actually using radar distances, but ruler distances.
This is the formula you suggest we use right?

<br /> \Delta S = \int^{r2}_{r1} \frac{1}{(1-r_s/r)} dr \qquad = \qquad (r2-r1) + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right) \qquad = \qquad \Delta r + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right) <br />

Now are you saying this is not the radar distance formula?
 
  • #44
Passionflower said:
This is the formula you suggest we use right?

<br /> \Delta S = \int^{r2}_{r1} \frac{1}{(1-r_s/r)} dr \qquad = \qquad (r2-r1) + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right) \qquad = \qquad \Delta r + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right) <br />

Now are you saying this is not the radar distance formula?
That's correct. It is the ruler distance from r1 to r2 of a physical calibrated stationary ruler that extends from r1 to r2, where r1 and r2 are the simultaneous Schwarzschild radial spatial coordinates of a falling object with proper length Delta S. The proper length is not changing as it falls, just the coordinate length. The radar length measured by an observer falling with the rod is more complicated, but I would be interested in eventually finding out what that would be.
 
  • #45
yuiop said:
That's correct. It is the ruler distance from r1 to r2 of a physical calibrated stationary ruler that extends from r1 to r2, where r1 and r2 are the simultaneous Schwarzschild radial spatial coordinates of a falling object with proper length Delta S. The proper length is not changing as it falls, just the coordinate length. The radar length measured by an observer falling with the rod is more complicated, but I would be interested in eventually finding out what that would be.
I see, so then we have to conclude that the radar distance formula between two stationary objects is the same formula as the ruler distance formula for falling from infinity. As an extension we could get the complete formula that includes an initial velocity and one where the fall is from a given r coordinate value.

And indeed, a radar distance formula for with the same options as for the ruler distance.
 
  • #46
yuiop said:
This is fine if we are measuring the coordinate length of a stationary object. If the object is moving we have to be careful to specify equal coordinate times for the events locating the ends of the object.

Again, I think this is fine if the measured object is not moving with respect to the Schwarzschild coordinates.

I suspect[/color] that when all the dust settles, we will find that the proper length of a falling object is the product of the gravitational and velocity related length contraction factors. The proper length \Delta S of a falling object that extends from Schwarzschild coordinate (r2,t) to (r1,t) at coordinate time t, should then be:

\Delta S = \int^{r2}_{r1} \frac{1}{(1-r_s/r)} dr \qquad = \qquad (r2-r1) + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right) \qquad = \qquad \Delta r + r_s \ln \left(\frac{r2-r_s}{r1-r_s}\right)

... if I have got it right[/color] and my educated guess[/color] is correct.

This is not a derivation, this is just a wild guess. Besides, it contradicts your other "guess" from this thread where you claim (again, with no proof) that:

yuoip said:
Again this the coordinate length of short stationary object. For a short moving object the equation is:

ds=\frac{dr}{\sqrt{1-\frac{2GM}{rc^2}}\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}}

where v is the local velocity.

Physics is a precise science, not a guessing game.
 
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