The source of gravitational red shift

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between gravitational redshift and the local position invariance of the Einstein Equivalence Principle. Participants explore the implications of this principle in the context of gravitational fields and acceleration, referencing specific experiments to illustrate their points.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about why gravitational redshift is considered a consequence of local position invariance.
  • One participant explains that in an accelerating frame, such as Einstein's elevator, a detector at the top measures a redshift compared to a detector at the bottom, illustrating the equivalence between acceleration and gravitational fields.
  • Another participant references the Mossbauer Effect experiment, noting that photons gain energy (blue-shift) when falling and require adjustments to account for redshift when measured at different heights.
  • Participants discuss the implications of the equivalence principle, suggesting that it allows for the same physical effects to be observed in both gravitational and accelerated frames.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While some participants find clarity in the explanations provided, there remains a general uncertainty regarding the deeper implications of local position invariance and its connection to gravitational redshift. No consensus is reached on the underlying reasons for this relationship.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the concepts involved, including the need for a deeper understanding of the equivalence principle and its applications in different contexts. The discussion references specific experiments but does not resolve all questions related to the topic.

Zman
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On the following website;

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/Walsworth/Activities/Atomic%20clock/old_atomicclock.html"

I read that;

The gravitational red-shift is a consequence of the local position invariance of the Einstein Equivalence Principle.

I know what gravitational red shift is and I understand the principle of Local Position Invariance but I don’t understand why gravitational red shift is a consequence of Local Position Invariance.

Can somebody enlighten me on this issue?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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Zman said:
On the following website;

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/Walsworth/Activities/Atomic%20clock/old_atomicclock.html"

I read that;

The gravitational red-shift is a consequence of the local position invariance of the Einstein Equivalence Principle.

I know what gravitational red shift is and I understand the principle of Local Position Invariance but I don’t understand why gravitational red shift is a consequence of Local Position Invariance.

Can somebody enlighten me on this issue?

It just means that, in Einstein's elevator for example, a detector at the "top" will measure a redshift compared to a detector at the "bottom" from a source at the "bottom", if the elevator is accelerated "upward". And according to the Equivalence principle (local position invariance) it makes no difference whether the elevator is being accelerated in deep space or being accelerated in a gravitational field (at rest with the gravity source).

Gravitational redshift is a consequence of the proper acceleration, so if it's observed "at rest" in a gravitational field, then it's a consequence of local position invariance, since that's equivalent to accelerating in the absence of gravity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Al68 said:
It just means that, in Einstein's elevator for example, a detector at the "top" will measure a redshift compared to a detector at the "bottom" from a source at the "bottom", if the elevator is accelerated "upward". And according to the Equivalence principle (local position invariance) it makes no difference whether the elevator is being accelerated in deep space or being accelerated in a gravitational field (at rest with the gravity source).
What you describe is exactly the Mossbauer Effect experiment (Pound and Rebka) that was carried out in 1959 at Harvard http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v3/i9/p439_1
The photons gained energy (blue-shifted) as they fell from the roof to the basement of the physics building, and the experimenters had to move the source away from the detector at a constant velocity to red-shift them back.
 
Al68, thank you very much for your explanation. It is now clear to me what that phrase means.
 

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