Thermal Physics: Questions on change of state

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the change of state between solids, liquids, and gases, focusing on concepts such as temperature, internal energy, and potential energy during phase transitions. Participants explore theoretical aspects and seek clarification on specific questions related to thermal physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how two particles can be at the same temperature but have different internal energies, suggesting that temperature is a collective phenomenon and cannot be applied to individual particles.
  • Another participant discusses the relationship between potential energy and bond breaking, asserting that potential energy increases as intermolecular distances increase during phase changes, despite the breaking of bonds.
  • There is a suggestion that potential energy is greater in liquids than in gases due to density differences, and a request for clarification on this point based on provided material.
  • One participant mentions that internal energy consists of both kinetic energy and potential energy, emphasizing that internal energy is not solely kinetic.
  • Confusion arises regarding the definitions of binding energy and potential energy, with a participant attempting to clarify these concepts in the context of phase changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between potential energy and the state of matter, particularly regarding whether potential energy increases or decreases during phase changes. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific materials that contain definitions and explanations, but there are indications of missing details and assumptions that could clarify the concepts discussed. The discussion highlights the complexity of the relationships between temperature, internal energy, and potential energy during phase transitions.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and individuals interested in thermal physics, particularly those seeking to understand the nuances of energy changes during phase transitions and the underlying principles of temperature and internal energy.

Tangeton
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Hello I am trying to learn about the change of state between solids, liquids and gases but I don't understand exactly how it works. I've been reading material given by my school, but I got these two questions to ask because I can't answer them. These are not questions on the sheet they just questions that I made which is something I should know but don't...

How is it possible for two particles to be at the same temperature but have different internal energy?
The material says ''it is possible for two objects/substances to be at the same temperature but have different internal energies'' but then goes we will go into this further next lesson in 'the specifics' but i found no explenation of this on that sheet...

How can potential energy increase when bonds are broken during change of state?
I thought that the more bonds there are/ the more rigid they are the more potential energy there is so if you break those bonds wouldn't PE decrease instead of increasing, which my material says?

If it increases, does that mean that there will be more PE when boiling than melting? And if i were asked 'in which stage would a substance have the most internal energy?' in which of the four stages (solid --> melting --> boiling ---> gas) would it have the most? or would the internal energy stay constant throughout since lost pe = gained ke if energy was to be conserved?

SORRY for not being able to do this thanks for help :(
 
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Tangeton said:
How is it possible for two particles to be at the same temperature but have different internal energy?
The material says ''it is possible for two objects/substances to be at the same temperature but have different internal energies'' but then goes we will go into this further next lesson in 'the specifics' but i found no explenation of this on that sheet...
Temperature is a collective phenomenon. You can't talk about the temperature of a single particle, only about its energy. Imagine an ideal gas in a closed, isolated container. Initially, give all the particles the same amount of kinetic energy. As the particles collide, the energy will be redistributed among the many particles, and no two will have the same energy. The system will however have a temperature, and the distribution of kinetic energy (or speed) will follow a well-known cure, the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution.

Tangeton said:
How can potential energy increase when bonds are broken during change of state?
I thought that the more bonds there are/ the more rigid they are the more potential energy there is so if you break those bonds wouldn't PE decrease instead of increasing, which my material says?
Normally, there will be more potential energy say in a liquid than in a gas, as the density is much greater then. Can you site with the material says about that?

Tangeton said:
If it increases, does that mean that there will be more PE when boiling than melting? And if i were asked 'in which stage would a substance have the most internal energy?' in which of the four stages (solid --> melting --> boiling ---> gas) would it have the most? or would the internal energy stay constant throughout since lost pe = gained ke if energy was to be conserved?
Internal energy usually refers to energy that is not in the form of kinetic energy.
 
Tangeton said:
How can potential energy increase when bonds are broken during change of state?
I thought that the more bonds there are/ the more rigid they are the more potential energy there is so if you break those bonds wouldn't PE decrease instead of increasing, which my material says?

I think you are confusing binding energy with potential energy.

Potential energy would refer to the distance between the molecules.
As energy is added to the substance, the intermolecular distance increases during the phase change and thus so does the potential energy.
Normally known as latent heat, as there is no temperature increase.
 
DrClaude said:
Normally, there will be more potential energy say in a liquid than in a gas, as the density is much greater then. Can you site with the material says about that?

It says the fallowing: ''At melting point the particles do not vibrate any faster, meaning that the kinetic energy and temperature are constant. The bonds that keep the particles in a rigid shape are broken and the potential energy increases''

Also, I thought there will be the most potential energy in a solid since the sheet says that ''the potential energy (of the solid) is from the bonds between them (particles)'' and for a liquid it states that ''since they (particles) are free to slide past each other the potential energy is less than that of it in solid form.''


DrClaude said:
Internal energy usually refers to energy that is not in the form of kinetic energy.

Says on this sheet that the internal energy ''of a substance is due to the vibrations/movement energy of the particles (kinetic) and the energy due to the bonds holding them together (potential).''
 
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